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The US needs to treat this as an act of war by a foreign military/government, not as a criminal act by people acting in an individual capacity. If the US can i

The US needs to treat this as an act of war by a foreign military/government, not as a criminal act by people acting in an individual capacity. If the US can identify the individual hackers, then they should be able to identify the physical location from which the military committed the acts of war and respond with the use of force as permitted by the UN Charter and international laws and norms. By responding with grand jury indictments the US sets a terrible and dangerous precedent and is telling foreign governments the US will not do anything in response to military based acts of cyber warfare.

anonexpat 7y ago
That starts World War 3.
- leberkleister 7y ago
  Who would you expect to join in on the side of the CCP?
  - jvanderbot 7y ago
    Russia, Iran, NK, a number of countries we ignore in Africa.
    - leberkleister 7y ago
      Other than NK, do the others have any material alliance with the CCP or is this based on their less-than-friendly stance with the US? Unsure why they would join a shooting war.
      - jvanderbot 7y ago
        Its a somewhat educated guess if they would but I meant who answer who might. I personally anticipate an escalation of tensions along NATO / non-NATO lines and exploitation of destabilized regions. It's almost inevitable, classic Thucydides trap combined with NATO. https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/09/the-thucydides-trap/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/09/the-thucydides-trap/
      - frank2 7y ago
        You don't understand why the government of Iran would resent the US so much that they would contribute military resources to harm the US?
        leberkleister 7y ago
        Given their population isn’t a big fan of their governance, and actually holds a positive view of the US, I have sincere doubts to the possibility. Perhaps aiding and abetting? But an act of war, no.
        jvanderbot 7y ago
        Depends. Iran has (allegedly) committed what could be constituted as acts of war already. With the US in a heightened state of engagement in direct conflict with China and possibly regional actors, the Gulf of Oman seems like a great place to touch off a regional conflict.
        jessaustin 7y ago
        ...their population isn’t a big fan of their governance. Why would you believe this? The last time they didn't like their government, they replaced it with the current government. Even the Ayatollah was pissed off that they mistakenly shot down a plane full of Iranians; they weren't about to curb the relatively limited public demonstrations that agreed with him on that topic. Oh, let me guess... you learned of the average Iranian's great political discontent from the USA war media. "Wishful thinking disguised as reporting" leads to wishful thinking in place of analysis.
      - obmelvin 7y ago
        The belt and road initiative is creating alliances between China and many countries in Africa and Asia.
    - jariel 7y ago
      "Russia, Iran, NK, a number of countries we ignore in Africa." Russia won't, neither will most African nations. There won't be a war anyhow.
- throwaway_tech 7y ago
  It seems your position is that the response is the trigger not the initial aggression. How did WW2 start? With Hitler invading Poland or was that fine, and UK/France bear the blame of the WW2 by declaring war on hitler in response?
pinkfoot 7y ago
You really want to launch a military attack on China? Are you seven?
- loceng 7y ago
  Agreed, instead what needs to happen is aggressive implementation of inflicting "pain" in their systems via economic measures - however unfortunately democracies around the world aren't stable due to the gains from technology haven't been adequately redistributed to society for too long that the current cracks in foundations would turn into a complete collapse; this is something that Presidential candidate Andrew Yang seems to understand the most - and is not only ideal but likely the only candidate who is competent enough to manage China's leadership's behaviour appropriately.
  - pinkfoot 7y ago
    > aggressive implementation of inflicting "pain" in their systems via economic measures. You might find this becomes their Sputnik moment.
    - loceng 7y ago
      I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here: I'd appreciate if could you explain your reasoning, comparison for me?
      - pinkfoot 7y ago
        I’ll let the Washington Post explain... “If Washington can cut China off from American technology at will, China will be determined to build its own technological infrastructure, top to bottom.“ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/the-blacklisting-of-huawei-might-be-chinas-sputnik-moment/2019/05/23/9352fc66-7d99-11e9-a5b3-34f3edf1351e_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/the-...
- ruffrey 7y ago
  I agree with the first statement, but this could be stated in a more tolerant manner. Attack the idea rather than the person.
excerionsforte 7y ago
US needs to fight back with the same treatment. Gloves need to come off. Very tired of hearing about these attacks with no cyber counter attack. I don't need my information used again!!
ozmodiar 7y ago
Hasn't this precedent already been set a long time ago? I had thought cyber warfare acts were common. I would think they would have to specifically shut down large infrastructure before a response beyond this was even considered.
option 7y ago
it is certainly the right move to charge individuals rather then directly escalating military tensions with China. Make life miserable for those directly involved and responsible. Next time, others will push back against an order to attack like this because consequences will be personal for them, not just another move in a war
- bcrosby95 7y ago
  > Next time, others will push back against an order to attack like this because consequences will be personal for them, not just another move in a war. You think Chinese soldiers will push back against orders from above because one time the US made the (supposed) perpetrators lifes miserable? What do you think China will do? Just say "OK, on second thought you don't have to do that"?
  - option 7y ago
    no, high level generals will advise against acts like this, because they will be afraid to lose their real estate in Cupertino, CA
    - awb 7y ago
      Whatever investments they have in the US are probably dwarfed by what they have in China. I doubt any government wants someone working for them that invests the majority of their wealth in an adversarial country.
      - option 7y ago
        look where their kids study and live. Europe is in no danger from Russia because gov and rich kids live and study there
        awb 7y ago
        Counter point: Ukraine. Russia had lots of citizens and influence there but still took military action.
cdiamand 7y ago
Force in my opinion, is the incorrect response. The grand powers on the world stage are constantly posturing and taking actions to further their own power. The United States is no different. We, civilians don't know the majority of what is taking place. A "hot" war between two powers would be of such a great cost in human life, you would want to avoid it at all costs. This means indicting with a grand jury instead of starting a war.
- excerionsforte 7y ago
  What would be the "correct" response? Given that citizens affected (including me) have gotten their information used relating to this attack, I'd say a state sponsored cyber counter attack will be/is the best deterrence. UN clearly has not caught up with the times in how to respond to state sponsored attacks.
  - ses1984 7y ago
    I wouldn't want my government to kill anyone on my behalf because my credit report was stolen. How about we start with securing our systems? Modernize identity and credit reporting, stop relying on social security numbers, etc.
    - meowface 7y ago
      What do you mean? The parent said they supported a cyber counter attack, which doesn't imply killing anyone unless it's explicitly stated (e.g. attacking critical infrastructure like power stations).
  - cdiamand 7y ago
    I'm sorry that you got hurt by this. But I, as a civilian am not qualified to answer that question. Nor do I want to answer that question. This is not a perfect analogy, and I don't want you to think that geopolitics is a zero sum game. But, imagine two heavyweight boxers circling each other in a ring. They are bouncing on the balls of their feet. They are moving in what you would almost call a dance. Most of the "fight" is in their footwork, their positioning. When one does jab, the other blocks, or moves out of the way, or takes the hit. Sometimes they counter. Sometimes they punch. This fight goes on for a long, long time. It is not tit for tat. They both want to win. What you are saying is "That boxer needs to jab back, because the other boxer jabbed at him."
airza 7y ago
I'm not sure i would want to cause the end of human civilization in response to the breach of a credit report company.
- loceng 7y ago
  It's clearly not the right approach, however the severity of what the breach entails does require a very sharp, adequate response - which hasn't happened yet.
- leberkleister 7y ago
  Think bigger. The CCP routinely engages in this class of behavior of salami slicing. Tiny little cuts that unto themselves wouldn’t be cause for aggression. This is the child poking another. Violence isn’t preferable but if one refuses to correct...
  - luckylion 7y ago
    Think better. So does the US. If you treat this as an act of war, you automatically classify any cyber operation your operatives have executed as an act of war. Against Russians, against EU countries etc. I don't think anybody really wants that.
  - Aunche 7y ago
    I'd be very surprised if the US isn't performing similar hacks on China. They're probably just better at covering their tracks.
    - yazan94 7y ago
      Also plausible is that the Americans don't want to toot their own horn (as the CIA and NSA seldom do) and the Chinese don't want to appear vulnerable and admit they were hacked. The difference in responsibilities to the people that a dictatorship and a democracy are stark, almost regardless of how broken of a democracy it is. I am no hacking expert, but the fact that the internet is such an open place and knowledge sharing is so widespread, I would lean to the side that they have comparable hacking capabilities as America. I've yet to hear of a reason why they wouldn't other than the standard " 'Murica #1". And given a dictatorship presiding over a massive economy and a valid raison d'etre for such capabilities, there is no reason they cannot fund an equivalent of the NSA
u10 7y ago
Are you going to be picking up a rifle and hitting the beach? Chances are you and your buddies will be wiped out by transonic anti-ship missiles hitting the troop transport ship on the way to China.
kingkawn 7y ago
This is nuts, there is no way it makes sense to escalate to open warfare over a hack like this
arminiusreturns 7y ago
Techthroway's that have never experienced war and don't study international relations and geopolitics should stop suggesting bullshit like this. I get so tired of people advocating more aggressive stances with other nations when it's not their ass or their offsprings that will go to war. This is also why I advocate that next war all the politicians sons and daughters get drafted and then we can see if they still want to go to war. Oh wait, the congress abdicated it's constitutional duty to be responsible for declaring war via the unconstitutional War Powers Act and AUMF's...
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  > Oh wait, the congress abdicated it's constitutional duty to be responsible for declaring war via the unconstitutional War Powers Act and AUMF's... AUMFs are (often limited and/or conditional) declarations of war, from a Constitutional perspective, not an abdication of the power; the Supreme Court has consistently held that the Constitution doesn't require magic words when exercising the Constitutional power to declare war.
  - chishaku 7y ago
    While valid, this is a technical interpretation that misses the point IMO. Look at the range of actions the AUMF's are applied to. The AUMF's, in effect, allow the executive to wage war pretty much anywhere on the planet for an indefinite amount of time. In your view, is Congress honoring the spirit of their Constitutional duty?
    - dragonwriter 7y ago
      > Look at the range of actions the AUMF's are applied to. The AUMF's, in effect, allow the executive to wage war pretty much anywhere on the planet for an indefinite amount of time. Most declarations of war do not have temporal or geographic bounds. What was unusually expansive about the 9/11 AUMF (not AUMFs more generally, neither prior nor subsequent AUMFs have had this feature) is that it also delegates the decision of the actual primary opponent(s) to executive discretion, which, yes, is an abdication of Congressional responsibility. But that's the 9/11 AUMF, not AUMFs in general.
jackpirate 7y ago
It's pretty clear that the US hacks other countries far more than other countries hack the US. That's why the US has historically been very reticent to agree to treaties that would limit a country's ability to hack.
souterrain 7y ago
The US would do better nationalising Equifax.
- allovernow 7y ago
  Are you crazy? That's one step away from a social credit score. Orgs like Equifax should not exist. I did not consent to this kind of surveillance, I was forced into it because I needed a paycheck and a place to live. Now I'm paying for it because of the incompetence of others - if the U.S. government instead had this power it would become much more difficult to differentiate between incompetence and malice.
  - souterrain 7y ago
    I could be crazy, but I’m not certain of the relevance here. If the US government ran this, you would at least have a chance at congressional oversight. Equifax is largely unchecked in its present corporate state. I’d argue for a people very dependent on credit, a financial credit score already approaches the burden of a social credit score.
FDSGSG 7y ago
Haha, we've got lots of publicly documented evidence of US hacking operations against Chinese entities. Should China treat those as acts of war too then?
syshum 7y ago
Yes because of the solution to Cyber Hacking is WW3, ending with everyone launching Nuclear bombs at each other Good Plan. Personally I am impressed that the War Hawks were unable to persuade the Administration to start a Conventional War over this. Good for them for refusing such an action
- forgetfulusr 7y ago
  Thankfully they know better and only go for easy(non-nuke)'prey'.
tsukikage 7y ago
If everyone took that stance, the world would be a sterile glowing ember by now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intelligence_operations_abroad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intelligence_ope...
K0SM0S 7y ago
By that token, Europe should have gone to war with the US for spying on its very leaders — Angela Merkel, François Hollande, etc. (The Snowden revelations and the aftermath). I honestly don't see how the US could spin anything positively on the world stage in that regard, they are by far the worst offender as far as spying is concerned. It's not even funny to compare. And there is documentation that tech/trade secrets from foreign companies aquired by e.g. CIA or NSA was given to US companies — industrial espionage isn't exactly new or surprising, but when conducted by Federal Agencies above any control, responsibility or accountability to the US public, let alone the UN or the world... Your suggestion is disingenuous at best and, I'm sorry to say so, terribly blind to the reality of the world, wherein the US is certainly not an all around good guy. Especially these days, it's clearly a hostile power to most others. As seen from the EU, at least, I can't speak for other places/cultures. But I hear it's not that great in general.
- syshum 7y ago
  We need to get Federal Agencies accountable to the US Tax Payers, and be more transparent I 100% agree with that I 10000% disagree they should ever have any accountability to the UN or any other international body I also do not feel bad that they spied on Angela Merkel, I do care that they spied on US Citizens. Spying on Angela Merkel is constitutional and within their remit, Spying on US Citizens is Unconstitutional and not in their Remit
- throwaway_tech 7y ago
  >By that token, Europe should have gone to war with the US for spying on its very leaders Well not exactly. One was a state sponsored military act of cyber warfare that indiscriminately targeted an entire populace and infrastructure (i.e. a military infringed on the sovereignty of an entire nation state). The other was a targeted intelligence operation. >Your suggestion is disingenuous at best and, I'm sorry to say so, terribly blind to the reality of the world... Being from Europe I would assume you would be very familiar with the dangers of failing to act when one military infringes on the sovereignty of another. Though I guess we will see either China will continue hacking and escalate their hacking or they won't...if I were a betting man I would happily take you up on such a bet that China will continue and escalate its military hacking against all nation states.
yibg 7y ago
If that is the appropriate response then everyone would be shooting at everyone else long ago. You think the US doesn’t hack China, or Russian or pretty much every other country?
vkou 7y ago
> The US needs to treat this as an act of war by a foreign military/government, not as a criminal act by people acting in an individual capacity. Should every CIA black and grey op... And any operation by the NSA be considered by the target country as an act of war, too? If a government employee hacking some software system is an act of war, then the US has committed acts of war against China, Russia, Germany, France, the UK, etc, etc, etc. Committing an act of war against four nuclear powers sounds pretty irrational to me... Maybe we should reign those two organizations in a bit, before they get everyone killed?
dontbenebby 7y ago
>The US needs to treat this as an act of war I'd be careful throwing around wishes like that. Are you sure the US doesn't do similar hacks? I'd much prefer people steal data than damage/penetrate critical infrastructure. (The latter is something that should be treated much more harshly, in my opinion)
jb775 7y ago
Considering how much crap the NSA has pulled over the years, I wouldn't consider this an "act of war". More-so tit-for-tat provoking and power posturing. China knows they are the swingin-big-dick of world manufacturing, not to mention the fact they own a massive amount of US treasury bonds and could jolt the world economy at a moments notice.
- throwaway_tech 7y ago
  >Considering how much crap the NSA has pulled over the years, I wouldn't consider this an "act of war". It may not seem like a distinction to some, but I think there is a difference from hacking by an intelligence agency and directly by a military. Now if you disagree, that is fine, but also each hack would need to be looked at on the merits to determine what would be a proportionate response, if any.
  - jb775 7y ago
    I know the recent charges list them as members of the Chinese "military", but I wouldn't be surprised if they also did work under the Chinese "intelligence agency" umbrella...especially considering their skillsets. Since the Chinese gov has such a tight grip on everything, I'd assume that the importance of which internal division is cutting which paycheck is more obfuscated than the US as long as it benefits the country.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

anonexpat 7y ago

That starts World War 3.

leberkleister 7y ago
Who would you expect to join in on the side of the CCP?
- jvanderbot 7y ago
  Russia, Iran, NK, a number of countries we ignore in Africa.
  - leberkleister 7y ago
    Other than NK, do the others have any material alliance with the CCP or is this based on their less-than-friendly stance with the US? Unsure why they would join a shooting war.
    - jvanderbot 7y ago
      Its a somewhat educated guess if they would but I meant who answer who might. I personally anticipate an escalation of tensions along NATO / non-NATO lines and exploitation of destabilized regions. It's almost inevitable, classic Thucydides trap combined with NATO. https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/09/the-thucydides-trap/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/09/the-thucydides-trap/
    - frank2 7y ago
      You don't understand why the government of Iran would resent the US so much that they would contribute military resources to harm the US?
      - leberkleister 7y ago
        Given their population isn’t a big fan of their governance, and actually holds a positive view of the US, I have sincere doubts to the possibility. Perhaps aiding and abetting? But an act of war, no.
        jvanderbot 7y ago
        Depends. Iran has (allegedly) committed what could be constituted as acts of war already. With the US in a heightened state of engagement in direct conflict with China and possibly regional actors, the Gulf of Oman seems like a great place to touch off a regional conflict.
        jessaustin 7y ago
        ...their population isn’t a big fan of their governance. Why would you believe this? The last time they didn't like their government, they replaced it with the current government. Even the Ayatollah was pissed off that they mistakenly shot down a plane full of Iranians; they weren't about to curb the relatively limited public demonstrations that agreed with him on that topic. Oh, let me guess... you learned of the average Iranian's great political discontent from the USA war media. "Wishful thinking disguised as reporting" leads to wishful thinking in place of analysis.
    - obmelvin 7y ago
      The belt and road initiative is creating alliances between China and many countries in Africa and Asia.
  - jariel 7y ago
    "Russia, Iran, NK, a number of countries we ignore in Africa." Russia won't, neither will most African nations. There won't be a war anyhow.
throwaway_tech 7y ago
It seems your position is that the response is the trigger not the initial aggression. How did WW2 start? With Hitler invading Poland or was that fine, and UK/France bear the blame of the WW2 by declaring war on hitler in response?

pinkfoot 7y ago

You really want to launch a military attack on China? Are you seven?

loceng 7y ago
Agreed, instead what needs to happen is aggressive implementation of inflicting "pain" in their systems via economic measures - however unfortunately democracies around the world aren't stable due to the gains from technology haven't been adequately redistributed to society for too long that the current cracks in foundations would turn into a complete collapse; this is something that Presidential candidate Andrew Yang seems to understand the most - and is not only ideal but likely the only candidate who is competent enough to manage China's leadership's behaviour appropriately.
- pinkfoot 7y ago
  > aggressive implementation of inflicting "pain" in their systems via economic measures. You might find this becomes their Sputnik moment.
  - loceng 7y ago
    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here: I'd appreciate if could you explain your reasoning, comparison for me?
    - pinkfoot 7y ago
      I’ll let the Washington Post explain... “If Washington can cut China off from American technology at will, China will be determined to build its own technological infrastructure, top to bottom.“ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/the-blacklisting-of-huawei-might-be-chinas-sputnik-moment/2019/05/23/9352fc66-7d99-11e9-a5b3-34f3edf1351e_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/the-...
ruffrey 7y ago
I agree with the first statement, but this could be stated in a more tolerant manner. Attack the idea rather than the person.

excerionsforte 7y ago

US needs to fight back with the same treatment. Gloves need to come off. Very tired of hearing about these attacks with no cyber counter attack. I don't need my information used again!!

ozmodiar 7y ago

Hasn't this precedent already been set a long time ago? I had thought cyber warfare acts were common. I would think they would have to specifically shut down large infrastructure before a response beyond this was even considered.

option 7y ago

it is certainly the right move to charge individuals rather then directly escalating military tensions with China. Make life miserable for those directly involved and responsible. Next time, others will push back against an order to attack like this because consequences will be personal for them, not just another move in a war

bcrosby95 7y ago
> Next time, others will push back against an order to attack like this because consequences will be personal for them, not just another move in a war. You think Chinese soldiers will push back against orders from above because one time the US made the (supposed) perpetrators lifes miserable? What do you think China will do? Just say "OK, on second thought you don't have to do that"?
- option 7y ago
  no, high level generals will advise against acts like this, because they will be afraid to lose their real estate in Cupertino, CA
  - awb 7y ago
    Whatever investments they have in the US are probably dwarfed by what they have in China. I doubt any government wants someone working for them that invests the majority of their wealth in an adversarial country.
    - option 7y ago
      look where their kids study and live. Europe is in no danger from Russia because gov and rich kids live and study there
      - awb 7y ago
        Counter point: Ukraine. Russia had lots of citizens and influence there but still took military action.

cdiamand 7y ago

Force in my opinion, is the incorrect response. The grand powers on the world stage are constantly posturing and taking actions to further their own power. The United States is no different. We, civilians don't know the majority of what is taking place. A "hot" war between two powers would be of such a great cost in human life, you would want to avoid it at all costs. This means indicting with a grand jury instead of starting a war.

excerionsforte 7y ago
What would be the "correct" response? Given that citizens affected (including me) have gotten their information used relating to this attack, I'd say a state sponsored cyber counter attack will be/is the best deterrence. UN clearly has not caught up with the times in how to respond to state sponsored attacks.
- ses1984 7y ago
  I wouldn't want my government to kill anyone on my behalf because my credit report was stolen. How about we start with securing our systems? Modernize identity and credit reporting, stop relying on social security numbers, etc.
  - meowface 7y ago
    What do you mean? The parent said they supported a cyber counter attack, which doesn't imply killing anyone unless it's explicitly stated (e.g. attacking critical infrastructure like power stations).
- cdiamand 7y ago
  I'm sorry that you got hurt by this. But I, as a civilian am not qualified to answer that question. Nor do I want to answer that question. This is not a perfect analogy, and I don't want you to think that geopolitics is a zero sum game. But, imagine two heavyweight boxers circling each other in a ring. They are bouncing on the balls of their feet. They are moving in what you would almost call a dance. Most of the "fight" is in their footwork, their positioning. When one does jab, the other blocks, or moves out of the way, or takes the hit. Sometimes they counter. Sometimes they punch. This fight goes on for a long, long time. It is not tit for tat. They both want to win. What you are saying is "That boxer needs to jab back, because the other boxer jabbed at him."

airza 7y ago

I'm not sure i would want to cause the end of human civilization in response to the breach of a credit report company.

loceng 7y ago
It's clearly not the right approach, however the severity of what the breach entails does require a very sharp, adequate response - which hasn't happened yet.
leberkleister 7y ago
Think bigger. The CCP routinely engages in this class of behavior of salami slicing. Tiny little cuts that unto themselves wouldn’t be cause for aggression. This is the child poking another. Violence isn’t preferable but if one refuses to correct...
- luckylion 7y ago
  Think better. So does the US. If you treat this as an act of war, you automatically classify any cyber operation your operatives have executed as an act of war. Against Russians, against EU countries etc. I don't think anybody really wants that.
- Aunche 7y ago
  I'd be very surprised if the US isn't performing similar hacks on China. They're probably just better at covering their tracks.
  - yazan94 7y ago
    Also plausible is that the Americans don't want to toot their own horn (as the CIA and NSA seldom do) and the Chinese don't want to appear vulnerable and admit they were hacked. The difference in responsibilities to the people that a dictatorship and a democracy are stark, almost regardless of how broken of a democracy it is. I am no hacking expert, but the fact that the internet is such an open place and knowledge sharing is so widespread, I would lean to the side that they have comparable hacking capabilities as America. I've yet to hear of a reason why they wouldn't other than the standard " 'Murica #1". And given a dictatorship presiding over a massive economy and a valid raison d'etre for such capabilities, there is no reason they cannot fund an equivalent of the NSA

u10 7y ago

Are you going to be picking up a rifle and hitting the beach? Chances are you and your buddies will be wiped out by transonic anti-ship missiles hitting the troop transport ship on the way to China.

kingkawn 7y ago

This is nuts, there is no way it makes sense to escalate to open warfare over a hack like this

arminiusreturns 7y ago

Techthroway's that have never experienced war and don't study international relations and geopolitics should stop suggesting bullshit like this. I get so tired of people advocating more aggressive stances with other nations when it's not their ass or their offsprings that will go to war. This is also why I advocate that next war all the politicians sons and daughters get drafted and then we can see if they still want to go to war. Oh wait, the congress abdicated it's constitutional duty to be responsible for declaring war via the unconstitutional War Powers Act and AUMF's...

dragonwriter 7y ago
> Oh wait, the congress abdicated it's constitutional duty to be responsible for declaring war via the unconstitutional War Powers Act and AUMF's... AUMFs are (often limited and/or conditional) declarations of war, from a Constitutional perspective, not an abdication of the power; the Supreme Court has consistently held that the Constitution doesn't require magic words when exercising the Constitutional power to declare war.
- chishaku 7y ago
  While valid, this is a technical interpretation that misses the point IMO. Look at the range of actions the AUMF's are applied to. The AUMF's, in effect, allow the executive to wage war pretty much anywhere on the planet for an indefinite amount of time. In your view, is Congress honoring the spirit of their Constitutional duty?
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    > Look at the range of actions the AUMF's are applied to. The AUMF's, in effect, allow the executive to wage war pretty much anywhere on the planet for an indefinite amount of time. Most declarations of war do not have temporal or geographic bounds. What was unusually expansive about the 9/11 AUMF (not AUMFs more generally, neither prior nor subsequent AUMFs have had this feature) is that it also delegates the decision of the actual primary opponent(s) to executive discretion, which, yes, is an abdication of Congressional responsibility. But that's the 9/11 AUMF, not AUMFs in general.

jackpirate 7y ago

It's pretty clear that the US hacks other countries far more than other countries hack the US. That's why the US has historically been very reticent to agree to treaties that would limit a country's ability to hack.

souterrain 7y ago

The US would do better nationalising Equifax.

allovernow 7y ago
Are you crazy? That's one step away from a social credit score. Orgs like Equifax should not exist. I did not consent to this kind of surveillance, I was forced into it because I needed a paycheck and a place to live. Now I'm paying for it because of the incompetence of others - if the U.S. government instead had this power it would become much more difficult to differentiate between incompetence and malice.
- souterrain 7y ago
  I could be crazy, but I’m not certain of the relevance here. If the US government ran this, you would at least have a chance at congressional oversight. Equifax is largely unchecked in its present corporate state. I’d argue for a people very dependent on credit, a financial credit score already approaches the burden of a social credit score.

FDSGSG 7y ago

Haha, we've got lots of publicly documented evidence of US hacking operations against Chinese entities. Should China treat those as acts of war too then?

syshum 7y ago

Yes because of the solution to Cyber Hacking is WW3, ending with everyone launching Nuclear bombs at each other Good Plan. Personally I am impressed that the War Hawks were unable to persuade the Administration to start a Conventional War over this. Good for them for refusing such an action

forgetfulusr 7y ago
Thankfully they know better and only go for easy(non-nuke)'prey'.

tsukikage 7y ago

If everyone took that stance, the world would be a sterile glowing ember by now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intelligence_operations_abroad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intelligence_ope...

K0SM0S 7y ago

By that token, Europe should have gone to war with the US for spying on its very leaders — Angela Merkel, François Hollande, etc. (The Snowden revelations and the aftermath). I honestly don't see how the US could spin anything positively on the world stage in that regard, they are by far the worst offender as far as spying is concerned. It's not even funny to compare. And there is documentation that tech/trade secrets from foreign companies aquired by e.g. CIA or NSA was given to US companies — industrial espionage isn't exactly new or surprising, but when conducted by Federal Agencies above any control, responsibility or accountability to the US public, let alone the UN or the world... Your suggestion is disingenuous at best and, I'm sorry to say so, terribly blind to the reality of the world, wherein the US is certainly not an all around good guy. Especially these days, it's clearly a hostile power to most others. As seen from the EU, at least, I can't speak for other places/cultures. But I hear it's not that great in general.

syshum 7y ago
We need to get Federal Agencies accountable to the US Tax Payers, and be more transparent I 100% agree with that I 10000% disagree they should ever have any accountability to the UN or any other international body I also do not feel bad that they spied on Angela Merkel, I do care that they spied on US Citizens. Spying on Angela Merkel is constitutional and within their remit, Spying on US Citizens is Unconstitutional and not in their Remit
throwaway_tech 7y ago
>By that token, Europe should have gone to war with the US for spying on its very leaders Well not exactly. One was a state sponsored military act of cyber warfare that indiscriminately targeted an entire populace and infrastructure (i.e. a military infringed on the sovereignty of an entire nation state). The other was a targeted intelligence operation. >Your suggestion is disingenuous at best and, I'm sorry to say so, terribly blind to the reality of the world... Being from Europe I would assume you would be very familiar with the dangers of failing to act when one military infringes on the sovereignty of another. Though I guess we will see either China will continue hacking and escalate their hacking or they won't...if I were a betting man I would happily take you up on such a bet that China will continue and escalate its military hacking against all nation states.

yibg 7y ago

If that is the appropriate response then everyone would be shooting at everyone else long ago. You think the US doesn’t hack China, or Russian or pretty much every other country?

vkou 7y ago

> The US needs to treat this as an act of war by a foreign military/government, not as a criminal act by people acting in an individual capacity. Should every CIA black and grey op... And any operation by the NSA be considered by the target country as an act of war, too? If a government employee hacking some software system is an act of war, then the US has committed acts of war against China, Russia, Germany, France, the UK, etc, etc, etc. Committing an act of war against four nuclear powers sounds pretty irrational to me... Maybe we should reign those two organizations in a bit, before they get everyone killed?

dontbenebby 7y ago

>The US needs to treat this as an act of war I'd be careful throwing around wishes like that. Are you sure the US doesn't do similar hacks? I'd much prefer people steal data than damage/penetrate critical infrastructure. (The latter is something that should be treated much more harshly, in my opinion)

jb775 7y ago

Considering how much crap the NSA has pulled over the years, I wouldn't consider this an "act of war". More-so tit-for-tat provoking and power posturing. China knows they are the swingin-big-dick of world manufacturing, not to mention the fact they own a massive amount of US treasury bonds and could jolt the world economy at a moments notice.

throwaway_tech 7y ago
>Considering how much crap the NSA has pulled over the years, I wouldn't consider this an "act of war". It may not seem like a distinction to some, but I think there is a difference from hacking by an intelligence agency and directly by a military. Now if you disagree, that is fine, but also each hack would need to be looked at on the merits to determine what would be a proportionate response, if any.
- jb775 7y ago
  I know the recent charges list them as members of the Chinese "military", but I wouldn't be surprised if they also did work under the Chinese "intelligence agency" umbrella...especially considering their skillsets. Since the Chinese gov has such a tight grip on everything, I'd assume that the importance of which internal division is cutting which paycheck is more obfuscated than the US as long as it benefits the country.

deleted 7y ago

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