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Comments all removed. The parent asked why I defend apple and I laid out my argument. Clearly people cared enough to respond and react. And yet I'm being dow

by davidu 16y ago

Comments all removed. The parent asked why I defend apple and I laid out my argument. Clearly people cared enough to respond and react. And yet I'm being downvoted for sharing my perspective just because it might be contrarian? Maybe that's /not/ why I'm being downvoted, but that's what it feels like to me. So no thanks. I'm content to keep my opinions to myself.

chc 16y ago
You defend Apple because Apple is good at generating profits for large, entrenched industries at the expense of users? That's an unusual stance. Also, which industries are you thinking of where the employees do not use some Google service or another every day? Even industries where I hear people constantly cursing Google often get a lot of value from their offerings.
daleharvey 16y ago
Apart from some of those examples being incredibly tenuous (personal computing), and the concept of defending companies position on one thing because you like its decisions elsewhere being kinda scary. But Google has had that impact on the entire web, both by providing visibility and a revenue stream via advertising.
- davidu 16y ago
  Comments all removed.
  - burgerbrain 16y ago
    Make judgment calls in each case. Don't like or dislike a company, that's just senseless. Rather, like or dislike what a company does. Appreciate IBM's Watson, and dislike IBM's European business dealings in the 30's and 40's. Appreciate contributions Apple has made to personal computing, disliking their control-freak attitude. Use your brain, don't make sweeping generalizations by sweep shit under the carpet.
    - davidu 16y ago
      Comments all removed.
      - burgerbrain 16y ago
        I don't know you, and haven't conversed with you, so I can't speak for how you support Apple. I simply oppose people who will defend any action, no matter how absurd, because they support the people behind that action in most other cases. You'll see all sorts of gymnastics used to justify it, but it really boils down to people supporting things they wouldn't normally, were they outside of context of their 'affiliation'. You see this a lot in politics (I used to do this myself, before I realized how silly it was), and you see it with popular consumer brands as well.
        davidu 16y ago
        I don't think I was hiding the fact that a big part of my Apple support comes equally from my distrust of Google than my love of Apple. I just look at the wreckage each has created and would pick Apple's wreckage over Google's any day. I'm a bit surprised that people find my position to be unusual. I think it represents reasonable behavior. But I often feel this way on HN. :-/
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        Natsu 16y ago
        I would honestly like to know what "wreckage" Google has created? Granted, I probably haven't experienced the most likely types (domain gets a penalty, webmaster doesn't understand how to fix it, or that sort of thing). Most of the time, they spend their days trying to make information open and accessible to everyone, which I love. In contrast, given the chance, Apple would control everything I do on my computer and charge me for it. No doubt that computer would be beautiful and it would work very well, but I prefer to manage on my own.
        16y ago
  - orangecat 16y ago
    Google is great for consumers, but they are really terrible for businesses Apple has been "terrible" for Nokia and RIM. Competition and consumer surplus and creative destruction are good, even if in the short run some businesses suffer. The revenue stream you site is an addiction for most sites This is somehow different from the revenue that publishers earn from Apple's app and iTunes stores?
  - greendestiny 16y ago
    Yes but why argue about whether Apple is good or bad at all, instead of talking about whether this latest In-App purchasing rule is good or bad. A bad idea isn't good simply because Apple has done great things in the past.
Prolorn 16y ago
We can laud the achievements Apple has accomplished without refraining from criticism where they fall short. Furthermore, even taking what you say for granted, these past achievements do not validate the approach Apple is taking today with their new in-app subscriptions policy.
- davidu 16y ago
  Comments all removed.
zppx 16y ago
That is a false dichotomy, Apple vs. Google. I think it's a poor way of trying to make sense of the situation. Keep in mind that the word "Google" is not even cited in the link. There's no need to defend every one of Apple's decisions, sometimes people do stuff that sucks, or even brings Google to the discussion just to defend Apple. EDIT: That said, your points were good, I liked the articulation of your comment, I upvoted you.
- davidu 16y ago
  Comments all removed.
  - sofuture 16y ago
    I'm sure the one all-encompassing corporate overlord is better than the other. Absolutely! Where do I enlist?
    - ThomPete 16y ago
      Apple isn't enjoying almost monopoly like status on the internet. It is a walled garden. If you want the alternative there are plenty out there, but they are not going to be as likely to make you money. I wonder why Apple see it fit to charge for that.
  - burgerbrain 16y ago
    I don't own or develop for a smartphone of any sort, but still disapprove of how Apple has been handling user (and developer, I do not consider them to be separate) rights. What Google does has nothing to do with how I feel (though I of course have opinions about their actions as well, they are offtopic). On perhaps a slightly related note: I don't vote for whichever political party opposes the one I dislike the most. Maybe I'm weird like that.
doron 16y ago
Google is bad for business?? this is an utterly bizarre statement. HTC seems to be doing well for itself tooling their machines with Google android. Consider the potential revenue business generates from Adwords. Or freeing small businesses from having to run and manage their own email systems. My favorite example is the benefit a myriad of startups gained from having access to Google API's like maps, and the benefit business gets from being easily found on a map, a bar for instance is a business too, i find them with Google maps. You also dont seem to qualify having the most advanced search engine in the world a benefit for businesses, talk about a tremendous impact on the entire ecosystem. I could go on, with ease. but i think you might get the point, your view of business benefit is too narrow, your sharp dichotomy between business and consumers is false as well, businesses are consumers of other businesses too.
mcantelon 16y ago
>Google has not had this kind of impact on anything short of SEO consultants. Very few industries have trusted Google and ended up satisfied with the outcome. You've never heard of Google Ads, I suppose. The idea that Apple's gouging is somehow a boon is completely shortsighted. Android's Market offers a much more lucrative path to the future plus it's possible to create verticals in Android that don't rely on a centrally planned store for approval and distribution. Mobile is young and my guess is these verticals are going to be big. Apple's store won't scale in the long term.
greendestiny 16y ago
I see almost entirely positive points on your comments? In fact this comment is still at 10. For myself I agree with the good points you raised about Apple, but this article and all these comments are much more about the specific issue at hand. I feel like you're not seeing the context in quite the same way as other commenters myself included. Considering you didn't mention compulsory In-App price matching at all, you actually haven't defended Apple over this issue in these comments at all. It just kind of reads like you didn't read the article and are just responding to the headline.
chc 16y ago
Re: Removing your comments: Yeah, some people seem to be very downvote-happy. Sorry. I appreciated hearing your opinion, though I did think it was very weird. Weird is interesting. Just remember that with as many users as HN has nowadays, there will always be some people who feel the need to downvote anything they disagree with. I've found that, in general, it's not the same people you're talking to. I think the best policy is to ignore the downvotes unless they're accompanied by a comment with a good reason why, because jerks who downvote frivolously are not worth your time.
dannyr 16y ago
davidu owns operate OpenDNS which competes with Google DNS. http://blog.opendns.com/2009/12/03/opendns-google-dns/ http://blog.opendns.com/2009/12/03/opendns-google-dns/
linuxhansl 16y ago
Why did you remove the comments? Now all we see is some changed comment that was downvoted before you changed it. Yes, people do not understand the purpose of voting. It's not to express agreement or disagreement but rather to rate the validity of the points made in the comment. Anyway. I did disagree with you, but I upvoted your comment and I would have liked to continue the argument. Now I can't because you removed your comments.
- greendestiny 16y ago
  All of his comments in this thread except one were positive at the time he removed them. This is some kind of hissy fit.

by davidu 16y ago

chc 16y ago

You defend Apple because Apple is good at generating profits for large, entrenched industries at the expense of users? That's an unusual stance. Also, which industries are you thinking of where the employees do not use some Google service or another every day? Even industries where I hear people constantly cursing Google often get a lot of value from their offerings.

daleharvey 16y ago

Apart from some of those examples being incredibly tenuous (personal computing), and the concept of defending companies position on one thing because you like its decisions elsewhere being kinda scary. But Google has had that impact on the entire web, both by providing visibility and a revenue stream via advertising.

davidu 16y ago
Comments all removed.
- burgerbrain 16y ago
  Make judgment calls in each case. Don't like or dislike a company, that's just senseless. Rather, like or dislike what a company does. Appreciate IBM's Watson, and dislike IBM's European business dealings in the 30's and 40's. Appreciate contributions Apple has made to personal computing, disliking their control-freak attitude. Use your brain, don't make sweeping generalizations by sweep shit under the carpet.
  - davidu 16y ago
    Comments all removed.
    - burgerbrain 16y ago
      I don't know you, and haven't conversed with you, so I can't speak for how you support Apple. I simply oppose people who will defend any action, no matter how absurd, because they support the people behind that action in most other cases. You'll see all sorts of gymnastics used to justify it, but it really boils down to people supporting things they wouldn't normally, were they outside of context of their 'affiliation'. You see this a lot in politics (I used to do this myself, before I realized how silly it was), and you see it with popular consumer brands as well.
      - davidu 16y ago
        I don't think I was hiding the fact that a big part of my Apple support comes equally from my distrust of Google than my love of Apple. I just look at the wreckage each has created and would pick Apple's wreckage over Google's any day. I'm a bit surprised that people find my position to be unusual. I think it represents reasonable behavior. But I often feel this way on HN. :-/
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        Natsu 16y ago
        I would honestly like to know what "wreckage" Google has created? Granted, I probably haven't experienced the most likely types (domain gets a penalty, webmaster doesn't understand how to fix it, or that sort of thing). Most of the time, they spend their days trying to make information open and accessible to everyone, which I love. In contrast, given the chance, Apple would control everything I do on my computer and charge me for it. No doubt that computer would be beautiful and it would work very well, but I prefer to manage on my own.
      - 16y ago
- orangecat 16y ago
  Google is great for consumers, but they are really terrible for businesses Apple has been "terrible" for Nokia and RIM. Competition and consumer surplus and creative destruction are good, even if in the short run some businesses suffer. The revenue stream you site is an addiction for most sites This is somehow different from the revenue that publishers earn from Apple's app and iTunes stores?
- greendestiny 16y ago
  Yes but why argue about whether Apple is good or bad at all, instead of talking about whether this latest In-App purchasing rule is good or bad. A bad idea isn't good simply because Apple has done great things in the past.

Prolorn 16y ago

We can laud the achievements Apple has accomplished without refraining from criticism where they fall short. Furthermore, even taking what you say for granted, these past achievements do not validate the approach Apple is taking today with their new in-app subscriptions policy.

davidu 16y ago
Comments all removed.

zppx 16y ago

That is a false dichotomy, Apple vs. Google. I think it's a poor way of trying to make sense of the situation. Keep in mind that the word "Google" is not even cited in the link. There's no need to defend every one of Apple's decisions, sometimes people do stuff that sucks, or even brings Google to the discussion just to defend Apple. EDIT: That said, your points were good, I liked the articulation of your comment, I upvoted you.

davidu 16y ago
Comments all removed.
- sofuture 16y ago
  I'm sure the one all-encompassing corporate overlord is better than the other. Absolutely! Where do I enlist?
  - ThomPete 16y ago
    Apple isn't enjoying almost monopoly like status on the internet. It is a walled garden. If you want the alternative there are plenty out there, but they are not going to be as likely to make you money. I wonder why Apple see it fit to charge for that.
- burgerbrain 16y ago
  I don't own or develop for a smartphone of any sort, but still disapprove of how Apple has been handling user (and developer, I do not consider them to be separate) rights. What Google does has nothing to do with how I feel (though I of course have opinions about their actions as well, they are offtopic). On perhaps a slightly related note: I don't vote for whichever political party opposes the one I dislike the most. Maybe I'm weird like that.

doron 16y ago

Google is bad for business?? this is an utterly bizarre statement. HTC seems to be doing well for itself tooling their machines with Google android. Consider the potential revenue business generates from Adwords. Or freeing small businesses from having to run and manage their own email systems. My favorite example is the benefit a myriad of startups gained from having access to Google API's like maps, and the benefit business gets from being easily found on a map, a bar for instance is a business too, i find them with Google maps. You also dont seem to qualify having the most advanced search engine in the world a benefit for businesses, talk about a tremendous impact on the entire ecosystem. I could go on, with ease. but i think you might get the point, your view of business benefit is too narrow, your sharp dichotomy between business and consumers is false as well, businesses are consumers of other businesses too.

mcantelon 16y ago

>Google has not had this kind of impact on anything short of SEO consultants. Very few industries have trusted Google and ended up satisfied with the outcome. You've never heard of Google Ads, I suppose. The idea that Apple's gouging is somehow a boon is completely shortsighted. Android's Market offers a much more lucrative path to the future plus it's possible to create verticals in Android that don't rely on a centrally planned store for approval and distribution. Mobile is young and my guess is these verticals are going to be big. Apple's store won't scale in the long term.

greendestiny 16y ago

I see almost entirely positive points on your comments? In fact this comment is still at 10. For myself I agree with the good points you raised about Apple, but this article and all these comments are much more about the specific issue at hand. I feel like you're not seeing the context in quite the same way as other commenters myself included. Considering you didn't mention compulsory In-App price matching at all, you actually haven't defended Apple over this issue in these comments at all. It just kind of reads like you didn't read the article and are just responding to the headline.

chc 16y ago

Re: Removing your comments: Yeah, some people seem to be very downvote-happy. Sorry. I appreciated hearing your opinion, though I did think it was very weird. Weird is interesting. Just remember that with as many users as HN has nowadays, there will always be some people who feel the need to downvote anything they disagree with. I've found that, in general, it's not the same people you're talking to. I think the best policy is to ignore the downvotes unless they're accompanied by a comment with a good reason why, because jerks who downvote frivolously are not worth your time.

dannyr 16y ago

davidu owns operate OpenDNS which competes with Google DNS. http://blog.opendns.com/2009/12/03/opendns-google-dns/ http://blog.opendns.com/2009/12/03/opendns-google-dns/

linuxhansl 16y ago

Why did you remove the comments? Now all we see is some changed comment that was downvoted before you changed it. Yes, people do not understand the purpose of voting. It's not to express agreement or disagreement but rather to rate the validity of the points made in the comment. Anyway. I did disagree with you, but I upvoted your comment and I would have liked to continue the argument. Now I can't because you removed your comments.

greendestiny 16y ago
All of his comments in this thread except one were positive at the time he removed them. This is some kind of hissy fit.