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> Nobody is forcing profits. Shareholders? > If you want to start a non-profit aerospace company, nobody is stopping you. Yeah, just found an aerospace compa

> Nobody is forcing profits. Shareholders? > If you want to start a non-profit aerospace company, nobody is stopping you. Yeah, just found an aerospace company. You don't need anything beyond hard-work and a can-do attitude. Definitely don't need decades worth of relationships, unimaginable capital, or readily hirable talent. You just gotta believe in yourself.

rayiner 7y ago
> Shareholders? The system doesn't force anyone to make a profit. If you borrow capital from people, your investors may demand a profit. But that's between you and your investors. Nobody is forcing you to take investment or sell equity in your company on the public markets. > Yeah, just found an aerospace company. You don't need anything beyond hard-work and a can-do attitude. Definitely don't need decades worth of relationships, unimaginable capital, or readily hirable talent. You just gotta believe in yourself. My point is to contrast a system where everyone is forced to be a non-profit or co-op (@jp555's hypothetical), and our system, where you are free to be a non-profit or co-op, if you want to. If you can't raise capital or hire top-notch employees under that structure, then that's a problem with the non-profit/co-op organization, not a shortcoming of our economic system.
- ianleeclark 7y ago
  > The system doesn't force anyone to make a profit. If you borrow capital from people, your investors may demand a profit. But that's between you and your investors. Nobody is forcing you to take investment or sell equity in your company on the public markets. If you want to just completely change the conversation, and hyperfocus on the individual, then you're free to do so, but I don't want to be brought along for the ride. You responded to a comment concerning Boeing, not some fresh-faced up-and-comer of your own creation.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    We're not talking about Boeing, we're talking about economic systems, with Boeing being an example. @jp555's comment addressed economic systems that "force no profits." @spamizbad then states "forcing profits is bad too," using Boeing as an example. My comment clarified that our system (in which Boeing exists) does not "force profits" (as distinguished from @jp555's example of a system that "forces no profits"). Our system allows profit-seeking companies as well as non-profit-seeking companies. The fact that Boeing feels compelled to earn a profit is a by-product of the financing arrangement by which Boeing was created. Nothing about our system would have prevented Boeing from having been founded as a non-profit.
    - ianleeclark 7y ago
      That's my bad, I did misread the chain.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  > The system doesn't force anyone to make a profit. If you borrow capital from people, your investors may demand a profit. But that's between you and your investors. Nobody is forcing you to take investment or sell equity in your company on the public markets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shareholder_primacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shareholder_primacy
  - tptacek 7y ago
    You're begging the question. His point is that shareholder demands aren't relevant if you simply don't accept random shareholders, which is something a number of large firms have successfully done.

rayiner 7y ago

> Shareholders? The system doesn't force anyone to make a profit. If you borrow capital from people, your investors may demand a profit. But that's between you and your investors. Nobody is forcing you to take investment or sell equity in your company on the public markets. > Yeah, just found an aerospace company. You don't need anything beyond hard-work and a can-do attitude. Definitely don't need decades worth of relationships, unimaginable capital, or readily hirable talent. You just gotta believe in yourself. My point is to contrast a system where everyone is forced to be a non-profit or co-op (@jp555's hypothetical), and our system, where you are free to be a non-profit or co-op, if you want to. If you can't raise capital or hire top-notch employees under that structure, then that's a problem with the non-profit/co-op organization, not a shortcoming of our economic system.

ianleeclark 7y ago
> The system doesn't force anyone to make a profit. If you borrow capital from people, your investors may demand a profit. But that's between you and your investors. Nobody is forcing you to take investment or sell equity in your company on the public markets. If you want to just completely change the conversation, and hyperfocus on the individual, then you're free to do so, but I don't want to be brought along for the ride. You responded to a comment concerning Boeing, not some fresh-faced up-and-comer of your own creation.
- rayiner 7y ago
  We're not talking about Boeing, we're talking about economic systems, with Boeing being an example. @jp555's comment addressed economic systems that "force no profits." @spamizbad then states "forcing profits is bad too," using Boeing as an example. My comment clarified that our system (in which Boeing exists) does not "force profits" (as distinguished from @jp555's example of a system that "forces no profits"). Our system allows profit-seeking companies as well as non-profit-seeking companies. The fact that Boeing feels compelled to earn a profit is a by-product of the financing arrangement by which Boeing was created. Nothing about our system would have prevented Boeing from having been founded as a non-profit.
  - ianleeclark 7y ago
    That's my bad, I did misread the chain.
Apocryphon 7y ago
> The system doesn't force anyone to make a profit. If you borrow capital from people, your investors may demand a profit. But that's between you and your investors. Nobody is forcing you to take investment or sell equity in your company on the public markets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shareholder_primacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shareholder_primacy
- tptacek 7y ago
  You're begging the question. His point is that shareholder demands aren't relevant if you simply don't accept random shareholders, which is something a number of large firms have successfully done.