5 ms·

I entirely understand alxlaz's position, buy my solution was exactly sticking to better window managers (in terms of long term support). My workstation is Linux

I entirely understand alxlaz's position, buy my solution was exactly sticking to better window managers (in terms of long term support). My workstation is Linux since '98 or '99, and since then I've used GNUstep for about a decade, then i3 and now sway (basically i3 for Wayland). I'm free from the breaking changes alxlaz describes. I just checked, and GNUstep is pretty much alive. Even that change was caused by me wanting to try tiling window managers, not support failure.

alxlaz 7y ago
Ah, I'm in a similar-ish boat, I use WindowMaker :). This isolates me from most, but definitely not all dubious changes. I've been down the tiling WM rabbit hole a while ago but it's just not for me, I like the mouse, I like icons... It's a little unsettling that there are two ways to get a stable experience: using window manager from 1998 (OK, ok, WindowMaker is still maintained-ish, in fact a very tiny portion of the code written after 1998 is mine :-) ), or getting used to a workflow akin to that of Windows 1.01 (i.e. a tiling WM). On the bright side, though, yeah, at least we have a choice!
- sergiosgc 7y ago
  > (...) getting used to a workflow akin to that of Windows 1.01 (i.e. a tiling WM) Not really, unless it's a tong-in-cheek remark. Tiling window managers use virtual desktops and programmable positioning of windows to produce a predictable layout. Windows 1.01 had neither of those. Add muscle memory to it and, if you can endure the learning/customization curve, you get a very efficient window manager. Whenever I'm alt-tabbing in search of windows in Windows or OSX I feel I'm using old software.
  - alxlaz 7y ago
    It's tongue-in-cheek of course :). That being said, I did find tiling WMs to be very unwieldy on most screens. When I first went down the tiling WM rabbit hole, I was using a laptop with a 15" screen, and that was great. After a while I got a 27" monitor, though, and tiling became extremely annoying -- every window is now either too wide to be read comfortably and I end up padding the screen with useless xterms, or too small for contents to fit in any reasonable way.
    - heavenlyblue 7y ago
      How are useless xterms different from uselessly used space for a simply centered window? I have 2x4K monitors at home. Moving to i3 is the best thing that happened to me.
      - alxlaz 7y ago
        > How are useless xterms different from uselessly used space for a simply centered window? You still have to open them and move them around, especially if you do change your layout eventually. I actually didn't have that problem when I was using ratpoison, but some applications (looking at you, Eclipse...) don't really work with it. (I know about stumpwm, and I do know Common Lisp, but alas, we just don't get along too well). When I moved to i3, which is greedy with screen space, I actually wrote myself a couple of scripts to handle this situation "gracefully" (automatically pad the screen with empty X11 windows, automatically un-pad them when needed) and bound them to a couple of key combinations. I mean it sort of worked but at one point I decided I want to spend more time doing fun/useful things and less time hacking on my window manager.
        ubercow13 7y ago
        notion is a bit like i3 but with fixed containers that don't disappear when they become empty: https://notionwm.net/ https://notionwm.net/ herbstluftwm also has containers something similar
        michaelmrose 7y ago
        Why didn't you use gaps instead of empty windows? Instead of hours writing scripts you could have spent 10 seconds adding a few lines of config.
        alxlaz 7y ago
        This was before i3-gaps was a thing, if that's what you're referring to.
    - michaelmrose 7y ago
- pushpop 7y ago
  KDE 4 was released in 2008 and has been stable and consistent for more than a decade. That predates Windows 7. So in the same time KDE has been consistent you’ve had had the migration from XP or Vista to Win7. Then Windows 8 and now Windows 10. They’ve all bought massive changes in the UI experience. If you don’t like KDE then use LXCE or Enlightenment or any of the other Linux desktop environments that have been pretty static (and have been even longer than KDE). So yeah, there actually is a lot of choice on Linux and not all of it looks dated.
  - smegger001 7y ago
    Mate desktop has been fairly stable (the default green tinted icon set is gross but fixable). I switched to it after Ubuntu long term support, and Debian on my other computer dropped gnome 2. Just didn't like gnome 3 or unity. Cinnamon was okay but at the time was still coupled to the brain dead ideas the gnome team had been perusing at the time. I haven't checked it out recently enough to know if it had improved.
yellowapple 7y ago
Similarly, Xfce, LXDE, and MATE are all alive and well and haven't changed much in the last decade, either.

alxlaz 7y ago

Ah, I'm in a similar-ish boat, I use WindowMaker :). This isolates me from most, but definitely not all dubious changes. I've been down the tiling WM rabbit hole a while ago but it's just not for me, I like the mouse, I like icons... It's a little unsettling that there are two ways to get a stable experience: using window manager from 1998 (OK, ok, WindowMaker is still maintained-ish, in fact a very tiny portion of the code written after 1998 is mine :-) ), or getting used to a workflow akin to that of Windows 1.01 (i.e. a tiling WM). On the bright side, though, yeah, at least we have a choice!

sergiosgc 7y ago
> (...) getting used to a workflow akin to that of Windows 1.01 (i.e. a tiling WM) Not really, unless it's a tong-in-cheek remark. Tiling window managers use virtual desktops and programmable positioning of windows to produce a predictable layout. Windows 1.01 had neither of those. Add muscle memory to it and, if you can endure the learning/customization curve, you get a very efficient window manager. Whenever I'm alt-tabbing in search of windows in Windows or OSX I feel I'm using old software.
- alxlaz 7y ago
  It's tongue-in-cheek of course :). That being said, I did find tiling WMs to be very unwieldy on most screens. When I first went down the tiling WM rabbit hole, I was using a laptop with a 15" screen, and that was great. After a while I got a 27" monitor, though, and tiling became extremely annoying -- every window is now either too wide to be read comfortably and I end up padding the screen with useless xterms, or too small for contents to fit in any reasonable way.
  - heavenlyblue 7y ago
    How are useless xterms different from uselessly used space for a simply centered window? I have 2x4K monitors at home. Moving to i3 is the best thing that happened to me.
    - alxlaz 7y ago
      > How are useless xterms different from uselessly used space for a simply centered window? You still have to open them and move them around, especially if you do change your layout eventually. I actually didn't have that problem when I was using ratpoison, but some applications (looking at you, Eclipse...) don't really work with it. (I know about stumpwm, and I do know Common Lisp, but alas, we just don't get along too well). When I moved to i3, which is greedy with screen space, I actually wrote myself a couple of scripts to handle this situation "gracefully" (automatically pad the screen with empty X11 windows, automatically un-pad them when needed) and bound them to a couple of key combinations. I mean it sort of worked but at one point I decided I want to spend more time doing fun/useful things and less time hacking on my window manager.
      - ubercow13 7y ago
        notion is a bit like i3 but with fixed containers that don't disappear when they become empty: https://notionwm.net/ https://notionwm.net/ herbstluftwm also has containers something similar
      - michaelmrose 7y ago
        Why didn't you use gaps instead of empty windows? Instead of hours writing scripts you could have spent 10 seconds adding a few lines of config.
        alxlaz 7y ago
        This was before i3-gaps was a thing, if that's what you're referring to.
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
pushpop 7y ago
KDE 4 was released in 2008 and has been stable and consistent for more than a decade. That predates Windows 7. So in the same time KDE has been consistent you’ve had had the migration from XP or Vista to Win7. Then Windows 8 and now Windows 10. They’ve all bought massive changes in the UI experience. If you don’t like KDE then use LXCE or Enlightenment or any of the other Linux desktop environments that have been pretty static (and have been even longer than KDE). So yeah, there actually is a lot of choice on Linux and not all of it looks dated.
- smegger001 7y ago
  Mate desktop has been fairly stable (the default green tinted icon set is gross but fixable). I switched to it after Ubuntu long term support, and Debian on my other computer dropped gnome 2. Just didn't like gnome 3 or unity. Cinnamon was okay but at the time was still coupled to the brain dead ideas the gnome team had been perusing at the time. I haven't checked it out recently enough to know if it had improved.

yellowapple 7y ago

Similarly, Xfce, LXDE, and MATE are all alive and well and haven't changed much in the last decade, either.