7 ms·

"And finally, there’s the related notion that anyone who doesn’t like Apple’s rules can pick up and move to another platform, like Android. Which is ridiculous.

"And finally, there’s the related notion that anyone who doesn’t like Apple’s rules can pick up and move to another platform, like Android. Which is ridiculous." What? Ridiculous how? This claim is ridiculous. Suck it up and use Android. You'll live. I did.

chc 16y ago
Abandoning your users and moving to a platform where there's little money to be made is a questionable proposition for producers. And a lot of users will have second thoughts about moving to a platform they perceive to be distinctly inferior just because Apple are being dicks. Also, as a reminder in case you live in a country where it isn't so: Contracts prevent most of Apple's customers from jumping platforms, and sunk costs in iOS apps tighten the lock-in.
- neutronicus 16y ago
  > Abandoning your users and moving to a platform where there's no money to be made is a questionable proposition for producers. And a lot of users will have second thoughts about moving to a platform they perceive to be distinctly inferior just because Apple are being dicks. It sounds like being on iOS as opposed to Android is worth money to you. That's what Apple thinks too. Either prove them wrong or pay the piper.
  - chc 16y ago
    Yes, fighting a monopoly is often a losing proposition. This is already well-known. Ask Netscape. Does the fact that Apple's appeal comes from its monopoly position somehow make its actions less of a shakedown?
    - neutronicus 16y ago
      Yes, fighting a monopoly is often a losing proposition. This is already well-known Ask Netscape. Does its resemblance to Microsoft in the '90s make Apple's actions more justifiable somehow? You know who Apple doesn't resemble? Sun. Sun let everyone besides themselves get rich off of Java, and look where they are today. And, monopoly, what? Having the best product doesn't make you a monopoly.
      - chc 16y ago
        Regarding your first paragraph: Are you seriously suggesting that the iPhone, iPod and iPad are anything but ridiculously profitable without Apple taking a 30% cut from Pandora? Apple's reports to its shareholders seem to indicate otherwise. (And if you're not claiming that, bringing up Sun is a red herring.) Regarding your second paragraph: I agree with you. The Mac is the best personal computing platform, yet it is not a monopoly. But having a monopoly in the mobile app market does give Apple a monopoly.
        loewenskind 16y ago
        >But having a monopoly in the mobile app market does give Apple a monopoly. They don't. Doesn't Android actually have more apps in their app store? It really is what the parent said: the Apple market place is just better, it's not any kind of monopoly.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
    - Travis 16y ago
      I recall reading that Android was shipped on more phones in Q4 than iOS. If true, how can you consider Apple a monopoly if they aren't even the most popular mobile OS out there?
      - ZeroGravitas 16y ago
        Android was shipped on three times as many phones as iOS in Q4 (in the US). You might be confusing it with the fact that installed base of Android is now equal to iOS on smartphones. (It's not yet caught up with iOS across phones, pods and pads)
        Travis 16y ago
        Correct me if you disagree, but it sounds like there is a pretty healthy non-monopolistic ecosystem in the mobile market, doesn't it? It confuses me how people can equate Apple with a monopoly, when they clearly are not controlling the entire market (unless you reduce the market to "Apple App Store", which really doesn't make sense).
        ZeroGravitas 16y ago
        Well, I'm probably not a typical case, because I'm European and have an economics degree so I see the core problem with IT today as being the constant chasing after network effects and monopolies. How many times do we need to see ignorant people lured into these roach motels before we as an industry or a society do something about it? On the other hand, I think Android has already earned its place as the next Windows, which I'm glad of, because it's open source which avoids the possibility of it being abused too much. But monopolies are about power rather than simple numbers. One good test would be if Apple can single-handedly dictate a price rise across the industry, which is one possible outcome of this latest announcement. Though, I actually think the interlocking demands are specifically intended to remove certain competitors from iOS without explicitly naming and kicking them out, much like they blocked Flash apps via over-broad limitations on programming language choice.
        16y ago
    - lotusleaf1987 16y ago
      |Yes, fighting a monopoly is often a losing proposition Do you even know what a monopoly is? Because based off your comment I don't think you do. "In economics, a monopoly (from Greek monos / μονος (alone or single) + polein / πωλειν (to sell)) exists when a specific individual or an enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it.": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly So tell me what product does Apple have a monopoly on? Laptops? No. Cell phones? No. Mp3 players? No. App store? No: https://market.android.com/ https://market.android.com/ There are alternatives to Apple, you just don't like them.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
- drivebyacct2 16y ago
  >there's no money to be made Man, I can't read this thread. There is so much hyperbole. I should have recognized the type of people this headline and article would bring out. edit: I don't understand your claim. Your wording wasn't problematic. As I read it before and read it now, you're implying that moving to Android results in "little money to be made". That's the part that I don't really understand I guess.
  - chc 16y ago
    I originally qualified that a lot more, but it read awkwardly, so I shortened it and assumed people would know what I meant. I'm sorry if it bothers you that much. Is the new wording better?
  - chc 16y ago
    In response to your edit: My understanding from every report I have ever read is that there just isn't a lot of money in Android apps. Not a lot of developers share, but those who do tend to report underwhelming results compared to what I see from iOS shops (and those who develop for both platforms have said exactly that in no uncertain terms). For example, Kreci posts his profits every month, and the monthly average is something like $1300 from 10 apps, several of which are pretty popular. All the news stories I see about the Android Market seem to agree with this. If you have better information, I would honestly be fascinated to hear. (I don't mean to impugn Kreci's success. He's well within the range he wants to be in for where he lives and I'm nothing but happy for him — but for where I live, that's rent on a cheap apartment.)
    - scottmagdalein 16y ago
      We have an app in the Android Market and the same type of app in the App Store. The Android app makes about $7500/month and the iOS app makes about $3000/month. We're about to release another paid app in March on both platforms that will be give us more data about the performance of apps in each marketplace. Maybe I should write a blog post about it...
      - 16y ago
- utx00 16y ago
  until enough producers move.
- utx00 16y ago
  until enough producers move.
- zyb09 16y ago
  Oh that's gonna change, no doubt. Produces can't ignore iOS, true, they'll suck it up for now, but the mobile market isn't gonna stay this way forever if Apple continues to behave this way. I say 80% of all apps we do, we do now both for iOS and Android. While Android used to be a second class citizen a year or so ago - often just recieving a 'port' of the iPhone version (ok it runs, we're done) - now there's much more focus on making 'native' Android apps (no more Back-button in the navigation bar etc.). Android revenue is still behind iOS, but it's profitable and worth doing. Since Android is growing already at a much faster rate than iOS and the whole tablet & smartphone business is only expected to get bigger anyway, you gotta wonder where we'll be in say - 5 years from now? Which will be the next Windows, the OS with 90% market share, that everybody is gonna develop for? Well it could've been iOS, but I don't think that's going to happen anymore.
  - tseabrooks 16y ago
    See... I kind of agree with you but I had a different take on things... It seems to me the time is right for people to get better at making web applications that provide really rich functionality. I know right their don't seem to be web applications that are as good as native clients but if people really work towards that direction they can avoid the walled garden all together... Of course then they have to convince users to go to the webpage and 'install' it as an icon in the dashboard..
  - adriand 16y ago
    > you gotta wonder where we'll be in say - 5 years from now? Is it possible that the market won't coalesce and will instead stay fragmented? I wonder about the likelihood of that happening. It seems unlikely that either Android or iOS will capture 90% market share any time soon, plus, there is Blackberry to contend with (perhaps the Playbook will revive their fortunes somewhat) and you can never completely count out Microsoft either, as we've seen with the recent Nokia situation. I think there are perhaps a couple of ways this could go. First, regardless of who executes best on technology, there may be a company who executes best on earning money for developers, and this economic factor could really boost the platform - if developers start coalescing around a platform, consumers may (will?) follow. (I think iOS has the edge here.) Second, if the market remains fragmented it is going to be untenable for many companies, particularly small ones who develop software for clients, to support all of the platforms. They'll either have to specialize in one, perhaps two, of the platforms and avoid or subcontract work for the other platforms, or they'll need to start relying more heavily on HTML5 and workarounds like Phonegap. From that perspective, it may be in the best interest of web developers to see the platform fragmentation continue and perhaps get even worse.
codeglomeration 16y ago
He was referring to the fact that once you've made significant investments in a platform + applications + DRM content, it's not really straightforward to move to another platform, especially because you cannot transfer the content you already paid for. Also let's not forget about early termination fees from carriers, or getting another subscription just to get another phone. For some people moving to another platform can be a significant expense. And for most people it's not really clear what else you might be missing on the other platform, that you were accustomed to using now.
jkincaid 16y ago
I did suck it up and switched to Android. It isn't painless. I now like Android better than iOS, but you need to change your muscle memory and learn where various options are. And all of the apps and content you purchased on iOS are no longer accessible, which is the real pain-point. These things weren't difficult for me, but they're a pretty big hurdle for 'normal' people. If Amazon pulls the Kindle app, a user is probably more likely to "just switch" to iBooks as opposed to a different platform that supports Kindle. Which is apparently what Apple is counting on.
- enneff 16y ago
  Oh, come on. None of these things even existed a few years ago. People are consumers and will adjust to whatever is the newer, better tech.
  - chc 16y ago
    That's not how people's brains work. When Mom first sees a smartphone, it's a cool new thing. Yeah, there's a learning curve, but it's new, so that's obvious. She'll deal. Fast forward three years. Mom has developed a lot of habits and expectations. Time for a new smartphone. When Mom buys a new smartphone, if it works differently than the one she had before, it is confusing and you just can't do anything with this piece of crap and why oh WHY can't it just be like her old one? And asking people to just throw away everything they own and buy it all again? Not only should that extra cost factor into your decision, there's a wealth of evidence that people irrationally weigh sunk costs more heavily than they should.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - ohyes 16y ago
      I do not find the Mom argument particularly compelling. Humans are some of the best things at learning on the planet. (From reading HN, I'm starting to believe that I must be one of the blessed few with a Mom who is not a complete jackass). If she wants to switch (and she will if she can no longer get the things that she wants), it will get bitched about for 2 weeks, then she will figure it out and you'll never hear about it again. This is some sort of squeaky wheel confirmation bias.
profitbaron 16y ago
Not everyone is tech-friendly and acceptable to new technology they see some things, as intrusive etc which is why certain platforms couldn't have existed in the earlier stages of the Internet etc hence, they are less likely to move over to a new platform because they are familiar with it and know where everything is.
raganwald 16y ago
People used to say that about Windows and OS X. And indeed, many of the people who are allowed to choose for themselves have chosen to suck it up and replace Windows machines with OS X machines. So yes, move to Android and stop being such miserable worms. Ditching an iPhone is not like ditching $5,000 worth of IBM PC-XT, especially because Apple have sync'd all your contacts, emails, and other personal data with your computer.

chc 16y ago

Abandoning your users and moving to a platform where there's little money to be made is a questionable proposition for producers. And a lot of users will have second thoughts about moving to a platform they perceive to be distinctly inferior just because Apple are being dicks. Also, as a reminder in case you live in a country where it isn't so: Contracts prevent most of Apple's customers from jumping platforms, and sunk costs in iOS apps tighten the lock-in.

neutronicus 16y ago
> Abandoning your users and moving to a platform where there's no money to be made is a questionable proposition for producers. And a lot of users will have second thoughts about moving to a platform they perceive to be distinctly inferior just because Apple are being dicks. It sounds like being on iOS as opposed to Android is worth money to you. That's what Apple thinks too. Either prove them wrong or pay the piper.
- chc 16y ago
  Yes, fighting a monopoly is often a losing proposition. This is already well-known. Ask Netscape. Does the fact that Apple's appeal comes from its monopoly position somehow make its actions less of a shakedown?
  - neutronicus 16y ago
    Yes, fighting a monopoly is often a losing proposition. This is already well-known Ask Netscape. Does its resemblance to Microsoft in the '90s make Apple's actions more justifiable somehow? You know who Apple doesn't resemble? Sun. Sun let everyone besides themselves get rich off of Java, and look where they are today. And, monopoly, what? Having the best product doesn't make you a monopoly.
    - chc 16y ago
      Regarding your first paragraph: Are you seriously suggesting that the iPhone, iPod and iPad are anything but ridiculously profitable without Apple taking a 30% cut from Pandora? Apple's reports to its shareholders seem to indicate otherwise. (And if you're not claiming that, bringing up Sun is a red herring.) Regarding your second paragraph: I agree with you. The Mac is the best personal computing platform, yet it is not a monopoly. But having a monopoly in the mobile app market does give Apple a monopoly.
      - loewenskind 16y ago
        >But having a monopoly in the mobile app market does give Apple a monopoly. They don't. Doesn't Android actually have more apps in their app store? It really is what the parent said: the Apple market place is just better, it's not any kind of monopoly.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
  - Travis 16y ago
    I recall reading that Android was shipped on more phones in Q4 than iOS. If true, how can you consider Apple a monopoly if they aren't even the most popular mobile OS out there?
    - ZeroGravitas 16y ago
      Android was shipped on three times as many phones as iOS in Q4 (in the US). You might be confusing it with the fact that installed base of Android is now equal to iOS on smartphones. (It's not yet caught up with iOS across phones, pods and pads)
      - Travis 16y ago
        Correct me if you disagree, but it sounds like there is a pretty healthy non-monopolistic ecosystem in the mobile market, doesn't it? It confuses me how people can equate Apple with a monopoly, when they clearly are not controlling the entire market (unless you reduce the market to "Apple App Store", which really doesn't make sense).
        ZeroGravitas 16y ago
        Well, I'm probably not a typical case, because I'm European and have an economics degree so I see the core problem with IT today as being the constant chasing after network effects and monopolies. How many times do we need to see ignorant people lured into these roach motels before we as an industry or a society do something about it? On the other hand, I think Android has already earned its place as the next Windows, which I'm glad of, because it's open source which avoids the possibility of it being abused too much. But monopolies are about power rather than simple numbers. One good test would be if Apple can single-handedly dictate a price rise across the industry, which is one possible outcome of this latest announcement. Though, I actually think the interlocking demands are specifically intended to remove certain competitors from iOS without explicitly naming and kicking them out, much like they blocked Flash apps via over-broad limitations on programming language choice.
        16y ago
  - lotusleaf1987 16y ago
    |Yes, fighting a monopoly is often a losing proposition Do you even know what a monopoly is? Because based off your comment I don't think you do. "In economics, a monopoly (from Greek monos / μονος (alone or single) + polein / πωλειν (to sell)) exists when a specific individual or an enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it.": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly So tell me what product does Apple have a monopoly on? Laptops? No. Cell phones? No. Mp3 players? No. App store? No: https://market.android.com/ https://market.android.com/ There are alternatives to Apple, you just don't like them.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
drivebyacct2 16y ago
>there's no money to be made Man, I can't read this thread. There is so much hyperbole. I should have recognized the type of people this headline and article would bring out. edit: I don't understand your claim. Your wording wasn't problematic. As I read it before and read it now, you're implying that moving to Android results in "little money to be made". That's the part that I don't really understand I guess.
- chc 16y ago
  I originally qualified that a lot more, but it read awkwardly, so I shortened it and assumed people would know what I meant. I'm sorry if it bothers you that much. Is the new wording better?
- chc 16y ago
  In response to your edit: My understanding from every report I have ever read is that there just isn't a lot of money in Android apps. Not a lot of developers share, but those who do tend to report underwhelming results compared to what I see from iOS shops (and those who develop for both platforms have said exactly that in no uncertain terms). For example, Kreci posts his profits every month, and the monthly average is something like $1300 from 10 apps, several of which are pretty popular. All the news stories I see about the Android Market seem to agree with this. If you have better information, I would honestly be fascinated to hear. (I don't mean to impugn Kreci's success. He's well within the range he wants to be in for where he lives and I'm nothing but happy for him — but for where I live, that's rent on a cheap apartment.)
  - scottmagdalein 16y ago
    We have an app in the Android Market and the same type of app in the App Store. The Android app makes about $7500/month and the iOS app makes about $3000/month. We're about to release another paid app in March on both platforms that will be give us more data about the performance of apps in each marketplace. Maybe I should write a blog post about it...
    - 16y ago
utx00 16y ago
until enough producers move.
utx00 16y ago
until enough producers move.
zyb09 16y ago
Oh that's gonna change, no doubt. Produces can't ignore iOS, true, they'll suck it up for now, but the mobile market isn't gonna stay this way forever if Apple continues to behave this way. I say 80% of all apps we do, we do now both for iOS and Android. While Android used to be a second class citizen a year or so ago - often just recieving a 'port' of the iPhone version (ok it runs, we're done) - now there's much more focus on making 'native' Android apps (no more Back-button in the navigation bar etc.). Android revenue is still behind iOS, but it's profitable and worth doing. Since Android is growing already at a much faster rate than iOS and the whole tablet & smartphone business is only expected to get bigger anyway, you gotta wonder where we'll be in say - 5 years from now? Which will be the next Windows, the OS with 90% market share, that everybody is gonna develop for? Well it could've been iOS, but I don't think that's going to happen anymore.
- tseabrooks 16y ago
  See... I kind of agree with you but I had a different take on things... It seems to me the time is right for people to get better at making web applications that provide really rich functionality. I know right their don't seem to be web applications that are as good as native clients but if people really work towards that direction they can avoid the walled garden all together... Of course then they have to convince users to go to the webpage and 'install' it as an icon in the dashboard..
- adriand 16y ago
  > you gotta wonder where we'll be in say - 5 years from now? Is it possible that the market won't coalesce and will instead stay fragmented? I wonder about the likelihood of that happening. It seems unlikely that either Android or iOS will capture 90% market share any time soon, plus, there is Blackberry to contend with (perhaps the Playbook will revive their fortunes somewhat) and you can never completely count out Microsoft either, as we've seen with the recent Nokia situation. I think there are perhaps a couple of ways this could go. First, regardless of who executes best on technology, there may be a company who executes best on earning money for developers, and this economic factor could really boost the platform - if developers start coalescing around a platform, consumers may (will?) follow. (I think iOS has the edge here.) Second, if the market remains fragmented it is going to be untenable for many companies, particularly small ones who develop software for clients, to support all of the platforms. They'll either have to specialize in one, perhaps two, of the platforms and avoid or subcontract work for the other platforms, or they'll need to start relying more heavily on HTML5 and workarounds like Phonegap. From that perspective, it may be in the best interest of web developers to see the platform fragmentation continue and perhaps get even worse.

codeglomeration 16y ago

He was referring to the fact that once you've made significant investments in a platform + applications + DRM content, it's not really straightforward to move to another platform, especially because you cannot transfer the content you already paid for. Also let's not forget about early termination fees from carriers, or getting another subscription just to get another phone. For some people moving to another platform can be a significant expense. And for most people it's not really clear what else you might be missing on the other platform, that you were accustomed to using now.

jkincaid 16y ago

I did suck it up and switched to Android. It isn't painless. I now like Android better than iOS, but you need to change your muscle memory and learn where various options are. And all of the apps and content you purchased on iOS are no longer accessible, which is the real pain-point. These things weren't difficult for me, but they're a pretty big hurdle for 'normal' people. If Amazon pulls the Kindle app, a user is probably more likely to "just switch" to iBooks as opposed to a different platform that supports Kindle. Which is apparently what Apple is counting on.

enneff 16y ago
Oh, come on. None of these things even existed a few years ago. People are consumers and will adjust to whatever is the newer, better tech.
- chc 16y ago
  That's not how people's brains work. When Mom first sees a smartphone, it's a cool new thing. Yeah, there's a learning curve, but it's new, so that's obvious. She'll deal. Fast forward three years. Mom has developed a lot of habits and expectations. Time for a new smartphone. When Mom buys a new smartphone, if it works differently than the one she had before, it is confusing and you just can't do anything with this piece of crap and why oh WHY can't it just be like her old one? And asking people to just throw away everything they own and buy it all again? Not only should that extra cost factor into your decision, there's a wealth of evidence that people irrationally weigh sunk costs more heavily than they should.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - ohyes 16y ago
    I do not find the Mom argument particularly compelling. Humans are some of the best things at learning on the planet. (From reading HN, I'm starting to believe that I must be one of the blessed few with a Mom who is not a complete jackass). If she wants to switch (and she will if she can no longer get the things that she wants), it will get bitched about for 2 weeks, then she will figure it out and you'll never hear about it again. This is some sort of squeaky wheel confirmation bias.

profitbaron 16y ago

Not everyone is tech-friendly and acceptable to new technology they see some things, as intrusive etc which is why certain platforms couldn't have existed in the earlier stages of the Internet etc hence, they are less likely to move over to a new platform because they are familiar with it and know where everything is.

raganwald 16y ago

People used to say that about Windows and OS X. And indeed, many of the people who are allowed to choose for themselves have chosen to suck it up and replace Windows machines with OS X machines. So yes, move to Android and stop being such miserable worms. Ditching an iPhone is not like ditching $5,000 worth of IBM PC-XT, especially because Apple have sync'd all your contacts, emails, and other personal data with your computer.