14 ms·

From the article: At Mondragon, there are agreed-upon wage ratios between executive work and field or factory work which earns a minimum wage. Thes

by cies 7y ago

From the article: At Mondragon, there are agreed-upon wage ratios between executive work and field or factory work which earns a minimum wage. These ratios range from 3:1 to 9:1 in different cooperatives and average 5:1. That is, the general manager of an average Mondragon cooperative earns no more than 5 times as much as the theoretical minimum wage paid in their cooperative. For most workers, this ratio is smaller because there are few Mondragon worker-owners that earn minimum wages, because most jobs are somewhat specialized and are classified at higher wage levels. The wage ratio of a cooperative is decided periodically by its worker-owners through a democratic vote. Afaik this is the biggest worker coop in existence. Does anyone know of any sizable examples of this ownership-model in tech? edit: added "worker" to "coop" (as I'm not interested in non-worker coops)

sudoaza 7y ago
Found these two lists, from the top of my mind i know the developers of Loomio are a coop https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/25644/are-there-any-actual-examples-of-profitable-programmers-workers-cooperatives https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/2564... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7634152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7634152
jboynyc 7y ago
A great resource on this is Nathan Schneider's book Everything for Everyone: https://nathanschneider.info/books/everything-for-everyone/ https://nathanschneider.info/books/everything-for-everyone/
- otachack 7y ago
  Backlogged this, I'm highly interested in this considering the old rat race seems out of style to me.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
iagovar 7y ago
I know a handful of them in Galicia, but they look small-ish. Mondragon had a tech consultancy company but I can't find them.
bprieto 7y ago
The interesting thing about this wage ratio is they had to increase it in the beginning of the cooperative because very few people were willing to take more responsibility for little more pay. So maybe there is a study to be done about what could be the optimum wage ratio that allows a company to attract top talent for management positions and at the same time is not perceived as injust and exploitative by the lower workers.
- qaq 7y ago
  top talent +/- makes far beyond what regular workers would perceive as unjust.
- hawkice 7y ago
  There is a difference between pay so poor no one is willing to take the job and pay good enough to get top talent. Clearing the first hurdle doesn't say anything about the second.
  - usrusr 7y ago
    But the same is true for all the lower ranks. It's one thing to pay enough to get someone to do the job and another to get the best for the role. A believable promise that the employer won't suppress low end wages for the benefit of C-suite compensation can be very attractive, even if the initial offer has exactly the same numbers on it. A weak CEO with strong people beneath him can still very much succeed, but the best CEO in the world won't help a company with otherwise sub-par employees. And it's not just hiring: a company where people are not financially punished for sticking to what they are best at can have a huge advantage over a competitor ravaged by the Peter Principle because that's the only way to get a party of the pie.
  - Sawamara 7y ago
    The myth of top talent is overrated, especially in managerial positions for companies where the workers have more say in decisions.
    - 7y ago
nickbauman 7y ago
Does it matter if it's large? I was just talking to a friend who started a small company, merged with a bigger company and thought he had done everything right. After a few years, he regretted selling the company. Small is beautiful. We learned this as children. Challenge the mantra of size and growth.
- donmatito 7y ago
  it matters but not in the sense that everybody should aim for a super large corporation. It matters because it validates that cooperatives can grow very large, and refutes the claims such as "yes it's nice, but of course it works only for small ventures and could never grow)
  - q3k 7y ago
    But the answer to that shouldn't be "here's an example of a large one" but "why do you care so much for growth, it's fine to be small".
    - donmatito 7y ago
      No it shouldn't (even if I agree with your sentiment about company, growth and probably life in general). People interested in coop model have a legitimate interest in proving that it can work for various business size
- arkitaip 7y ago
  I agree but let's also understand the damaging dynamics we see on HN everyday where some people consider a multi million dollar operation a "lifestyle business".
  - ghaff 7y ago
    "Lifestyle business" is generally not a very good term. On the one hand there's a small company that isn't very growth-oriented, throws off a modest amount of cash, and is very full-time job for the owner/operator. (Think a lot of franchise/retail or solo consulting.) On the other hand, you have a business that generates a decent largely passive income that lets the owner take lots of time off and basically not work any harder than they want to. I consider the latter a lot more lifestyle-businessy than the former.
jarofgreen 7y ago
The Size of Mondragon? No. But https://www.coops.tech/ https://www.coops.tech/ lists some small ones.
Angostura 7y ago
The John Lewis Partnership in the UK employs about 83,000 so perhaps a bit bigger. Not strictly a co-op, but very close.
- beaconstudios 7y ago
  there's also The Co-op in the UK - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Co-operative_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Co-operative_Group
- cies 7y ago
  Im not sure if this is a worker-coop. I'm actually only interested in worker coops. Should have clarified that.
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    I am a former coop member in the UK The Main Uk coop is both a worker and consumer coop. John Lewis is a bit of an edge case is sort of a worker coop its doesn't call its self a coop for branding purposes and its governance has some diferesnce form what a real worker coop does.
kumarharsh 7y ago
It's nothing compared to Amul - a dairy behemoth in India which employs about 3.6 MILLION people. They brought in the "White Revolution" making India the largest milk producer in the world! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amul https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amul
- cies 7y ago
  This Amul a worker coop? I'm only interested in worker coops, should have specified that.
  - denzil_correa 7y ago
    I guess so. > It is important to note that Amul Federation passes on 80-85% of consumer rupee back to milk producer members thus encouraging them to produce more milk. https://amul.com/files/pdf/GCMMF-sales-Turnover-2017-18-01042018-English.pdf https://amul.com/files/pdf/GCMMF-sales-Turnover-2017-18-0104...
    - sudoaza 7y ago
      Yup producer coops are quite commonplace for milk production in other places too.
  - cfv 7y ago
    > Formed in 1946, it is a cooperative brand managed by a cooperative body, the Gujarat Co-operative Milk Marketing Federation Ltd. (GCMMF), which today is jointly owned by 3.6 million milk producers in Gujarat.[4] I mean, kind of? idk if India has the concept of a worker's cooperative company but this is not super far away from it
    - C1sc0cat 7y ago
      This is a producer coop and its not a worker coop
weberc2 7y ago
Fixing the quote format so people can read it: > At Mondragon, there are agreed-upon wage ratios between executive work and field or factory work which earns a minimum wage. These ratios range from 3:1 to 9:1 in different cooperatives and average 5:1. That is, the general manager of an average Mondragon cooperative earns no more than 5 times as much as the theoretical minimum wage paid in their cooperative. For most workers, this ratio is smaller because there are few Mondragon worker-owners that earn minimum wages, because most jobs are somewhat specialized and are classified at higher wage levels. The wage ratio of a cooperative is decided periodically by its worker-owners through a democratic vote.
m-i-l 7y ago
> Does anyone know of any sizable examples of this ownership-model in tech? There is a tech-aligned version of the worker co-op called a platform co-op, with some examples at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_cooperative#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_cooperative#Examples .
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  That is a producer coop not a worker - part of KFC I structured that way
spaintech 7y ago
Wait, what most here are not discussing is the true nature of this organization. Historically, this cooperative was designe as a system to pay out the Basque cause, a separative movement with is Spain. This cooperative has/will be discriminatory based on your political views. Also, it’s imperative to say that most of it’s financing has at times come into question as they have received strong and at time ilegal funding from the Basque government, creating an unfair compete climate where other business could not thrive and where forced to concede to go into the group or just fail. Their business practices come from a captive market (with a strong political pressure to be in the status quo or else) which keeps competition on the sidelines. If you are a serious contender with in the Basque region of Spain, you wake up to pickets, and your factory on fire, so it might sound good at first, but there is nothing but smoke and mirrors in this organization. So, sure with a favorable financing, wage control, and captive market, you can really build a corporation that can then expand and compete outside of their core “captive” markets. Anybody know of a good dictatorial nations to start another model company like this?

by cies 7y ago

sudoaza 7y ago

Found these two lists, from the top of my mind i know the developers of Loomio are a coop https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/25644/are-there-any-actual-examples-of-profitable-programmers-workers-cooperatives https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/2564... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7634152 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7634152

jboynyc 7y ago

A great resource on this is Nathan Schneider's book Everything for Everyone: https://nathanschneider.info/books/everything-for-everyone/ https://nathanschneider.info/books/everything-for-everyone/

otachack 7y ago
Backlogged this, I'm highly interested in this considering the old rat race seems out of style to me.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

iagovar 7y ago

I know a handful of them in Galicia, but they look small-ish. Mondragon had a tech consultancy company but I can't find them.

bprieto 7y ago

The interesting thing about this wage ratio is they had to increase it in the beginning of the cooperative because very few people were willing to take more responsibility for little more pay. So maybe there is a study to be done about what could be the optimum wage ratio that allows a company to attract top talent for management positions and at the same time is not perceived as injust and exploitative by the lower workers.

qaq 7y ago
top talent +/- makes far beyond what regular workers would perceive as unjust.
hawkice 7y ago
There is a difference between pay so poor no one is willing to take the job and pay good enough to get top talent. Clearing the first hurdle doesn't say anything about the second.
- usrusr 7y ago
  But the same is true for all the lower ranks. It's one thing to pay enough to get someone to do the job and another to get the best for the role. A believable promise that the employer won't suppress low end wages for the benefit of C-suite compensation can be very attractive, even if the initial offer has exactly the same numbers on it. A weak CEO with strong people beneath him can still very much succeed, but the best CEO in the world won't help a company with otherwise sub-par employees. And it's not just hiring: a company where people are not financially punished for sticking to what they are best at can have a huge advantage over a competitor ravaged by the Peter Principle because that's the only way to get a party of the pie.
- Sawamara 7y ago
  The myth of top talent is overrated, especially in managerial positions for companies where the workers have more say in decisions.
  - 7y ago

nickbauman 7y ago

Does it matter if it's large? I was just talking to a friend who started a small company, merged with a bigger company and thought he had done everything right. After a few years, he regretted selling the company. Small is beautiful. We learned this as children. Challenge the mantra of size and growth.

donmatito 7y ago
it matters but not in the sense that everybody should aim for a super large corporation. It matters because it validates that cooperatives can grow very large, and refutes the claims such as "yes it's nice, but of course it works only for small ventures and could never grow)
- q3k 7y ago
  But the answer to that shouldn't be "here's an example of a large one" but "why do you care so much for growth, it's fine to be small".
  - donmatito 7y ago
    No it shouldn't (even if I agree with your sentiment about company, growth and probably life in general). People interested in coop model have a legitimate interest in proving that it can work for various business size
arkitaip 7y ago
I agree but let's also understand the damaging dynamics we see on HN everyday where some people consider a multi million dollar operation a "lifestyle business".
- ghaff 7y ago
  "Lifestyle business" is generally not a very good term. On the one hand there's a small company that isn't very growth-oriented, throws off a modest amount of cash, and is very full-time job for the owner/operator. (Think a lot of franchise/retail or solo consulting.) On the other hand, you have a business that generates a decent largely passive income that lets the owner take lots of time off and basically not work any harder than they want to. I consider the latter a lot more lifestyle-businessy than the former.

jarofgreen 7y ago

The Size of Mondragon? No. But https://www.coops.tech/ https://www.coops.tech/ lists some small ones.

Angostura 7y ago

The John Lewis Partnership in the UK employs about 83,000 so perhaps a bit bigger. Not strictly a co-op, but very close.

beaconstudios 7y ago
there's also The Co-op in the UK - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Co-operative_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Co-operative_Group
cies 7y ago
Im not sure if this is a worker-coop. I'm actually only interested in worker coops. Should have clarified that.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  I am a former coop member in the UK The Main Uk coop is both a worker and consumer coop. John Lewis is a bit of an edge case is sort of a worker coop its doesn't call its self a coop for branding purposes and its governance has some diferesnce form what a real worker coop does.

kumarharsh 7y ago

It's nothing compared to Amul - a dairy behemoth in India which employs about 3.6 MILLION people. They brought in the "White Revolution" making India the largest milk producer in the world! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amul https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amul

cies 7y ago
This Amul a worker coop? I'm only interested in worker coops, should have specified that.
- denzil_correa 7y ago
  I guess so. > It is important to note that Amul Federation passes on 80-85% of consumer rupee back to milk producer members thus encouraging them to produce more milk. https://amul.com/files/pdf/GCMMF-sales-Turnover-2017-18-01042018-English.pdf https://amul.com/files/pdf/GCMMF-sales-Turnover-2017-18-0104...
  - sudoaza 7y ago
    Yup producer coops are quite commonplace for milk production in other places too.
- cfv 7y ago
  > Formed in 1946, it is a cooperative brand managed by a cooperative body, the Gujarat Co-operative Milk Marketing Federation Ltd. (GCMMF), which today is jointly owned by 3.6 million milk producers in Gujarat.[4] I mean, kind of? idk if India has the concept of a worker's cooperative company but this is not super far away from it
  - C1sc0cat 7y ago
    This is a producer coop and its not a worker coop

weberc2 7y ago

Fixing the quote format so people can read it: > At Mondragon, there are agreed-upon wage ratios between executive work and field or factory work which earns a minimum wage. These ratios range from 3:1 to 9:1 in different cooperatives and average 5:1. That is, the general manager of an average Mondragon cooperative earns no more than 5 times as much as the theoretical minimum wage paid in their cooperative. For most workers, this ratio is smaller because there are few Mondragon worker-owners that earn minimum wages, because most jobs are somewhat specialized and are classified at higher wage levels. The wage ratio of a cooperative is decided periodically by its worker-owners through a democratic vote.

m-i-l 7y ago

> Does anyone know of any sizable examples of this ownership-model in tech? There is a tech-aligned version of the worker co-op called a platform co-op, with some examples at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_cooperative#Examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_cooperative#Examples .

C1sc0cat 7y ago
That is a producer coop not a worker - part of KFC I structured that way

spaintech 7y ago

Wait, what most here are not discussing is the true nature of this organization. Historically, this cooperative was designe as a system to pay out the Basque cause, a separative movement with is Spain. This cooperative has/will be discriminatory based on your political views. Also, it’s imperative to say that most of it’s financing has at times come into question as they have received strong and at time ilegal funding from the Basque government, creating an unfair compete climate where other business could not thrive and where forced to concede to go into the group or just fail. Their business practices come from a captive market (with a strong political pressure to be in the status quo or else) which keeps competition on the sidelines. If you are a serious contender with in the Basque region of Spain, you wake up to pickets, and your factory on fire, so it might sound good at first, but there is nothing but smoke and mirrors in this organization. So, sure with a favorable financing, wage control, and captive market, you can really build a corporation that can then expand and compete outside of their core “captive” markets. Anybody know of a good dictatorial nations to start another model company like this?