4 ms·

I think the cause and effect may be reversed from what you imply here. Having been a cyclist in both Berlin and in Oslo, I was much more aggressive in Berlin, o

I think the cause and effect may be reversed from what you imply here. Having been a cyclist in both Berlin and in Oslo, I was much more aggressive in Berlin, out of necessity. When there is not appropriate infrastructure and traffic does not respect you, it creates a sort of Max Max mentality where you do what you have to do.

lazyjones 7y ago
There's plenty of infrastructure for cyclists in the Netherlands and they're still famously aggressive. So, no.
- adrianN 7y ago
  I haven't heard of aggressive cyclists is the Netherlands. The image that comes to my mind is a slow bicycle with an upright position and a basket at the front. No helmet.
  - thawaway1837 7y ago
    The truth about cycling in Netherlands is that these complaints usually come from tourists (you won’t see them from the Dutch for the simple reason that most Dutch pedestrians are cyclists themselves). Tourists who are simply not used to a system where cyclists get equal importance as cars. Of course, since cyclists are humans, I’m sure there are some assholes, and there are probably cases where non assholes also make mistakes. The difference, as the numbers clearly show, is that in cities where the biggest fear is mad max cyclists, the number of deaths are hundreds fewer than where car driving is the norm.
  - lazyjones 7y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XypDTdd4qr0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XypDTdd4qr0
    - adrianN 7y ago
      The video says less than 5% of cyclists actually impeded other road users: https://youtu.be/XypDTdd4qr0?t=129 https://youtu.be/XypDTdd4qr0?t=129 Doesn't sound so aggressive to me.
  - sk0g 7y ago
    I spent a few days in Amsterdam, albeit in peak tourist season, and witnessed a fair few near misses and angry Dutch screaming! The cyclists are scary, but stick to their bike lanes. It works as long as pedestrians aren't being dumb, which probably happens all too often in peak seasons.
paulgb 7y ago
Yeah, and I think there's some selection bias here too. Cities where cyclists have a reputation for being aggressive tend to be cities where the non-aggressive are afraid to cycle.
woodpanel 7y ago
I disagree: What has 'lack of infrastructure' to do with aggressiveness against vulnerable pedestrians? How should a pedestrian "respect" you, the "mad max" cyclist?
- thawaway1837 7y ago
  Mad max cyclists exist in the US because for decades the US has promoted vehicular cycling, and built infrastructure accordingly. It was basically the concept that cycles should be treated on par with cars, share the same roads, commute at similar speeds, etc. As a result, the majority of American cyclists are people who are more risk taking, want to bike fast on super lightweight racing bicycles, and have built an aggressive cycling culture thanks to the fact that they’ve been trained to bike with cars. Most European cities advocated a different approach, where bikes had their own infrastructure built out that meant European cyclists ride slow “Euro” style bikes with baskets, usually don’t go very fast, etc. Further, good infrastructure means that bicyclists never have to interact with pedestrians other than in well controlled areas with proper signals etc that make clear when the cyclists should be moving and when the pedestrians.
thawaway1837 7y ago
I completely agree. Traffic culture really seems driven by traffic infrastructure, rules and enforcement than the other way around. I traveled to Mumbai, India twice in the last year a few months apart. Certain intersections that I traveled through on a daily basis used to have vehicles inching into the intersection well before their lights turned green, which usually caused problems, in the first trip. In the second trip, only a few months later, this had almost completely disappeared. The reason was the installation of I believe cameras, that ticketed cars if they entered the intersection on red, and this created enough of a change that two people visiting a few months apart would have diametrically opposite views of the driving culture of that region of the city.

lazyjones 7y ago

There's plenty of infrastructure for cyclists in the Netherlands and they're still famously aggressive. So, no.

adrianN 7y ago
I haven't heard of aggressive cyclists is the Netherlands. The image that comes to my mind is a slow bicycle with an upright position and a basket at the front. No helmet.
- thawaway1837 7y ago
  The truth about cycling in Netherlands is that these complaints usually come from tourists (you won’t see them from the Dutch for the simple reason that most Dutch pedestrians are cyclists themselves). Tourists who are simply not used to a system where cyclists get equal importance as cars. Of course, since cyclists are humans, I’m sure there are some assholes, and there are probably cases where non assholes also make mistakes. The difference, as the numbers clearly show, is that in cities where the biggest fear is mad max cyclists, the number of deaths are hundreds fewer than where car driving is the norm.
- lazyjones 7y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XypDTdd4qr0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XypDTdd4qr0
  - adrianN 7y ago
    The video says less than 5% of cyclists actually impeded other road users: https://youtu.be/XypDTdd4qr0?t=129 https://youtu.be/XypDTdd4qr0?t=129 Doesn't sound so aggressive to me.
- sk0g 7y ago
  I spent a few days in Amsterdam, albeit in peak tourist season, and witnessed a fair few near misses and angry Dutch screaming! The cyclists are scary, but stick to their bike lanes. It works as long as pedestrians aren't being dumb, which probably happens all too often in peak seasons.

paulgb 7y ago

Yeah, and I think there's some selection bias here too. Cities where cyclists have a reputation for being aggressive tend to be cities where the non-aggressive are afraid to cycle.

woodpanel 7y ago

I disagree: What has 'lack of infrastructure' to do with aggressiveness against vulnerable pedestrians? How should a pedestrian "respect" you, the "mad max" cyclist?

thawaway1837 7y ago
Mad max cyclists exist in the US because for decades the US has promoted vehicular cycling, and built infrastructure accordingly. It was basically the concept that cycles should be treated on par with cars, share the same roads, commute at similar speeds, etc. As a result, the majority of American cyclists are people who are more risk taking, want to bike fast on super lightweight racing bicycles, and have built an aggressive cycling culture thanks to the fact that they’ve been trained to bike with cars. Most European cities advocated a different approach, where bikes had their own infrastructure built out that meant European cyclists ride slow “Euro” style bikes with baskets, usually don’t go very fast, etc. Further, good infrastructure means that bicyclists never have to interact with pedestrians other than in well controlled areas with proper signals etc that make clear when the cyclists should be moving and when the pedestrians.

thawaway1837 7y ago

I completely agree. Traffic culture really seems driven by traffic infrastructure, rules and enforcement than the other way around. I traveled to Mumbai, India twice in the last year a few months apart. Certain intersections that I traveled through on a daily basis used to have vehicles inching into the intersection well before their lights turned green, which usually caused problems, in the first trip. In the second trip, only a few months later, this had almost completely disappeared. The reason was the installation of I believe cameras, that ticketed cars if they entered the intersection on red, and this created enough of a change that two people visiting a few months apart would have diametrically opposite views of the driving culture of that region of the city.