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> It is not uncommon for urban pedestrians in Germany to be more concerned with danger posed to them by cyclists than by cars. As they should! Cyclists are of

> It is not uncommon for urban pedestrians in Germany to be more concerned with danger posed to them by cyclists than by cars. As they should! Cyclists are often closer by and silent. Add to the fact that many cyclists are using the bike for exercise and seem to want to keep pace at any cost. But mostly - a car is made for running in to humans at relatively low speed, causing as little damage as possible. Bikes not so much. I’d much rather be hit by a car at 30km/h than a bike. Come to think of it - drivers license for cars probably makes a difference as well. Edit - anecdote: A co-worker of mine got hit by a bike at a buss stop. Not really super fast, but oh my he got tangled. Punctured lung, ruptured spleen, broken ribs etc. He was off work for almost a year in total. A modern car would most likely not have caused him, or the rider the kind of damage they incurred.

Joe-Z 7y ago
>Punctured lung, ruptured spleen, broken ribs etc. What in the hell was going on there? I mean, I get GP's point about aggressive cyclists. I noticed them in Berlin especially (straight, wide roads on flat terrain), but even then people will usually try to brake before they run into you. This kind of damage sounds insane. Was the cyclist hitting him at full-speed? If so, how???
- jordanbeiber 7y ago
  Yeah, so at places in Sweden we have the most stupid buss stops. You have main road, then a curb followed by a bicycle lane followed by a buss stop with a pedestrian sidewalk behind it. If you want to get to the buss you need to cross the cycle-lane. If the cyclist is careless and speeding, and you maybe are not paying enough attention, bad stuff can and do happen.
  - dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
    But this makes no sense. Whenever I see such bus stops I wonder who designed them in this way. It makes pedestrians and cyclist compete for the same area without any obvious sign. Pedestrians need to act quickly, otherwise they will miss the bus. Cyclists don't see any red light or other signal to stop from afar, and when they got closer and realize people start pouring from the bus stop to the road, they need to breake in the last moment. Sometimes you don't even realize what's going on as the bus is hidden from your view by trucks.
    - jordanbeiber 7y ago
      This is why a call them “stupid”. They are obviously dangerous, still I have one just like it around the corner from my home. Just the other week a guy got hit in the arm by a slow riding bike while waiting, which made him so pissed he grabbed the bike rider by the arm and kind of threw him to the ground. People had to separate them from fist fighting.
    - pastage 7y ago
      It's actually lots of regulation that states what is important in city planning, bicyclepaths are at the bottom of those list.
  - Joe-Z 7y ago
    I've seen these kind of stops in the Netherlands and can totally understand your point. I am all for separate bike lanes but why you would do it in a way to have this separate "bus island" I couldn't see.
tda 7y ago
No you wouldn't: a car-pedestrian accident at 30km/h gives you about a 5% chance to die. https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowledge/speed/speed_is_a_central_issue_in_road_safety/speed_and_the_injury_risk_for_different_speed_levels_en https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowle... With a bicycle I'm quite sure the odds of a fatality are <<1%
- jordanbeiber 7y ago
  Ok, I’m prepared to stand corrected. 30km/h is probably a bit to high speed, although data vs bike is hard to find. Getting hit by a bike a 30km/h might well get you killed though, judging from the state of my friend mentioned above. A bike have no deformation zones and no slick surfaces to slide along. Thank you for enlightening me with some numbers though.
- naniwaduni 7y ago
  While a bicycle probably isn't going to be going as fast as a car, at equal speeds bicycle collisions aren't going to be that much less dangerous than car impacts. 30 km/h is a quite attainable speed for a bicycle. I definitely wouldn't assume <<1%.
  - consp 7y ago
    You unfortunately miss the huge difference in mass and thus impact force. I guess it will make at least some difference. A 100kg cyclist + bicycle vs a 1500kg car (+ driver)
    - jordanbeiber 7y ago
      I would take in to account the hard stop. A modern car have deformation zones and angles for you to basically slide along - you will never get the impact of that full mass. A bike, well, you will come to a hard stop and it’s got metal rods sticking out here and there. Getting hit by a bicycle at high speed is worse than what you’d expect, at least according to my personal experiences.
rcxdude 7y ago
Cyclist-pedestrian collision fatalities (or even serious injuries) are very rare. In the UK they make national news. This is far far less than motorist - anything else collisions.
- jordanbeiber 7y ago
  As are pedestrian deaths at < 30km/h according to statistics though. At 30km/h you’ll have approx ~5 deaths of 100, by car. I don’t think you’ll have much less by bike at those speeds but injuries might well be worse - see stats of hospital times car vs bicycle.

Joe-Z 7y ago

>Punctured lung, ruptured spleen, broken ribs etc. What in the hell was going on there? I mean, I get GP's point about aggressive cyclists. I noticed them in Berlin especially (straight, wide roads on flat terrain), but even then people will usually try to brake before they run into you. This kind of damage sounds insane. Was the cyclist hitting him at full-speed? If so, how???

jordanbeiber 7y ago
Yeah, so at places in Sweden we have the most stupid buss stops. You have main road, then a curb followed by a bicycle lane followed by a buss stop with a pedestrian sidewalk behind it. If you want to get to the buss you need to cross the cycle-lane. If the cyclist is careless and speeding, and you maybe are not paying enough attention, bad stuff can and do happen.
- dvfjsdhgfv 7y ago
  But this makes no sense. Whenever I see such bus stops I wonder who designed them in this way. It makes pedestrians and cyclist compete for the same area without any obvious sign. Pedestrians need to act quickly, otherwise they will miss the bus. Cyclists don't see any red light or other signal to stop from afar, and when they got closer and realize people start pouring from the bus stop to the road, they need to breake in the last moment. Sometimes you don't even realize what's going on as the bus is hidden from your view by trucks.
  - jordanbeiber 7y ago
    This is why a call them “stupid”. They are obviously dangerous, still I have one just like it around the corner from my home. Just the other week a guy got hit in the arm by a slow riding bike while waiting, which made him so pissed he grabbed the bike rider by the arm and kind of threw him to the ground. People had to separate them from fist fighting.
  - pastage 7y ago
    It's actually lots of regulation that states what is important in city planning, bicyclepaths are at the bottom of those list.
- Joe-Z 7y ago
  I've seen these kind of stops in the Netherlands and can totally understand your point. I am all for separate bike lanes but why you would do it in a way to have this separate "bus island" I couldn't see.

tda 7y ago

No you wouldn't: a car-pedestrian accident at 30km/h gives you about a 5% chance to die. https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowledge/speed/speed_is_a_central_issue_in_road_safety/speed_and_the_injury_risk_for_different_speed_levels_en https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowle... With a bicycle I'm quite sure the odds of a fatality are <<1%

jordanbeiber 7y ago
Ok, I’m prepared to stand corrected. 30km/h is probably a bit to high speed, although data vs bike is hard to find. Getting hit by a bike a 30km/h might well get you killed though, judging from the state of my friend mentioned above. A bike have no deformation zones and no slick surfaces to slide along. Thank you for enlightening me with some numbers though.
naniwaduni 7y ago
While a bicycle probably isn't going to be going as fast as a car, at equal speeds bicycle collisions aren't going to be that much less dangerous than car impacts. 30 km/h is a quite attainable speed for a bicycle. I definitely wouldn't assume <<1%.
- consp 7y ago
  You unfortunately miss the huge difference in mass and thus impact force. I guess it will make at least some difference. A 100kg cyclist + bicycle vs a 1500kg car (+ driver)
  - jordanbeiber 7y ago
    I would take in to account the hard stop. A modern car have deformation zones and angles for you to basically slide along - you will never get the impact of that full mass. A bike, well, you will come to a hard stop and it’s got metal rods sticking out here and there. Getting hit by a bicycle at high speed is worse than what you’d expect, at least according to my personal experiences.

rcxdude 7y ago

Cyclist-pedestrian collision fatalities (or even serious injuries) are very rare. In the UK they make national news. This is far far less than motorist - anything else collisions.

jordanbeiber 7y ago
As are pedestrian deaths at < 30km/h according to statistics though. At 30km/h you’ll have approx ~5 deaths of 100, by car. I don’t think you’ll have much less by bike at those speeds but injuries might well be worse - see stats of hospital times car vs bicycle.