9 ms·

Long Term Support

76 points by luu 7y ago

reilly3000 7y ago
Apple, or at least the Apple ecosystem, may have the best consistency across manufacturers. Maybe Dell falls into that category as well. The vast majority of technology sellers simply don't stay around long enough to have a long term plan, and I don't think many consider "Parts" to a line of business they give full support to.
- Nullabillity 7y ago
  Many do, they just don't advertise it very well. ASUS directed me to Asusparts[0] a few years ago when I was looking for a replacement battery. Apparently they still sell most of the parts for the original 2007 Eee PC 701![1] Lenovo's parts website seems less comprehensive from what I can tell, but their schematic view looks really useful.[2] If anything, Apple, with their commitment to lockouts and supply chain control, are the standouts in their outright hostility to repair. [0]: https://asusparts.eu/en/ https://asusparts.eu/en/ [1]: https://asusparts.eu/en/partfinder/Asus/Netbook/Eee%20PC/701 https://asusparts.eu/en/partfinder/Asus/Netbook/Eee%20PC/701 [2]: https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/se/en/products/laptops-and-netbooks/thinkpad-x-series-laptops/thinkpad-x220/4286/parts/display/schematic https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/se/en/products/laptops-and-netb...
  - privateSFacct 7y ago
    Is this a joke re apple? They make some of the highest value preserving phones out there - period. Long after your supposed "standouts" in repairability heads to the landfill, apple's phones will be repaired and re-used and passed along to another user. Seriously - look at the prices for used apple products or if you go to sell an old phone - its incredible. The latest software is available to phones 6 or even 7 years old. I'm seriously curious - can you list phone from Samsung / HTC or whoever you consider to be a standout in not locking folks out from 7 years ago and the software platform that is available for it? The security updates being produced for it? I'm seriously very curious - I keep being told apple is terrible but no one will actually NAME a phone that lasts longer (I say this as my parents use their apple products for 5-7 years easily with a battery replacement when I come out to visit) - I could probably switch them to an HTC or other product as long as they could actually get maintained software and repairs for the 5+ years they keep their devices. Apple - they can just walk into to get things fixed.
    - Nullabillity 7y ago
      The thread so far was about laptops, so that's the context that in which I responded. I wish I had a good answer for phones.. Fairphone, maybe? That whole industry is a depressing dumpster fire. Though, once again, Apple manages to be by far the most hostile (bricking all phones with replaced displays, anyone?).
      - privateSFacct 7y ago
        The same is even more true for laptops. Have you priced out old laptops? An old sony or asus laptop has basically zero value. An old mac has value. I don't use mac's but my wife does. At the office we go through laptops in bulk (every 2 years basically). He used her laptop very successfully for something like 6-7 years (and apple had software that supported it). The only thing she needed to do was get a new battery for $130. That was walk in service. By contrast, ordering replacement batteries for laptops off amazon (asus / dell etc) - the things are TOTAL GARBAGE. Whatever lock down apple is doing in their supply chain is paying off in long term reliability. Interesting to see the downvotes though - I'll have to browse HN for them because it seems the comments that don't fit the going narrative get trashed. And yet no one can name the phone (or laptop) that holds value better than apple - despite claims that apple is the worst. Does that strike you as a bit weird? ALL other brands should be better if apple is really the worst. It's basically a set of lies being pumped out about apple's reliability, durability, longevitiy - and as people go out and buy crap phones from HTC etc that fill up landfills, use child labor, are manufactured with much less regard for the environment they pat themselves on the back. Apple supports out of warranty repairs, on a walk in/drop off basis in many cases, on items MUCH MUCH longer than almost all other manufacturers.
        Nullabillity 7y ago
        My personal laptop (mostly used for travel these days) is still a 5 year old $800 ASUS ROG G551J. The battery did go bad, but I got a replacement in less than 24 hours (which is far from normal over here), and the installation was tool-free. I upgraded both the RAM and storage over time, which was trivial. Hell, they have an official guide on how to avoid voiding the warranty while doing it![0] [0]: https://rog.asus.com/articles/g-series-gaming-laptops/g551-upgrade-guide/ https://rog.asus.com/articles/g-series-gaming-laptops/g551-u...
smacktoward 7y ago
> Does anyone make anything like this anymore, a tradesman’s machine? One of the perplexing things about modernity is the way that capitalism, a system whose big strength is supposed to be the way it provides choices, in practice keeps producing markets where the available choices are only skin deep. There's a market-leading product, and there's a million minor variations on that market-leading product, but if you want something fundamentally different from that market-leading product, you're out of luck. If you want a smartphone, you're going to be buying a flat, featureless slab of glass with a soldered-on battery. Want a replaceable battery? Want a different form factor or a physical keyboard? Sorry, you're out of luck. If you want a TV, you're going to be buying a "smart" TV with a bunch of poorly written software that will be obsolete a year from now. Just want the display without the software? Sorry, you're out of luck. You can see this happening in non-tech markets too, like the car market, which is increasingly converging on the "crossover" layout as the One True Passenger Car. You can still buy other layouts, but the number of carmakers who offer those other layouts are dwindling fast. (Ford has famously already given up on them completely.) So we end up with these weird markets where there seems to be no end of choices available, but that's only true if your desires line up exactly with those of the average consumer. The farther they diverge from that golden mean, the quicker you find you really have no choices at all.
- MadWombat 7y ago
  > keeps producing markets where the available choices are only skin deep Because it turns out that catering to minority demands only works for some markets, but not others (i.e. all cell phones look and function the same, but there are dozens of different flavors and textures of peanut butter). And also, because it turns out that convincing the customer base that what you offer is what they want is easier than making the things they actually want (mostly because people rarely know what they want in the first place). Also, all three examples you mentioned have fairly straight forward reasons. There are no physical keyboards on phones because most people prefer more screen space and a keyboard takes space. There are no "dumb" TVs because people prefer their appliances to work out of the box and that is exactly what the "smart" TVs provide, you don't have to plug them into any other device to get them to show you content. And cars have been pretty standard for a while now, there might be some demand for a car with a dildo shaped joystick instead of a steering wheel, but maybe not enough to warrant actually making one.
tonyedgecombe 7y ago
>I don’t care about thin or light at all. I’m happy to carry a few extra pounds; That's a small niche now, most people don't want to lug a heavy laptop around with them.
- NullPrefix 7y ago
  You're thinking about tablets.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    No.
- efreak 7y ago
  There's a difference between _not heavy when carrying_ and _as light as possible_. As a simple example, using screws instead of glue/adhesive requires more space and more weight. The same for using socketed ram. None of this would affect usability, nor would they make it ugly or too heavy to carry. There's applications to this outside of repair, as well--I would have been quite happy to pay an extra $50 for my ($200) phone to have a 6Ah battery.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago
> I don’t care about thin or light at all. I’m happy to carry a few extra pounds; these are my tools, and if that’s the price of durable, maintainable and resilient tools means a bit of extra weight in the bag I’ll pay it and smile. I just want to be able to fix it; I want something I can strip all the way down to standard parts with a standard screwdriver and replace piecemeal when it needs piecemeal replacing. Does anyone make anything like this anymore, a tradesman’s machine? The MNTRE people are giving it a shot. Is anyone else, anywhere? If durable, maintainable, and resilient are your number one priority, maybe you want a desktop. It is trivial to open up the case and replace or upgrade components. Desktops also tend to last longer than laptops. It is harder to transport, but I am sure just like the various mechanics, you can come up with a rolling toolbox for your desktop that you can load into the back of your pickup truck. As a bonus, you can also get higher performance CPU's since you can deal with the heat better in a desktop case. I am sure that such a risk could easily last you 10 years, and it does seem like the perfect choice given your priorities.
- CoolGuySteve 7y ago
  I think the more annoying thing about modern laptops is the lack of standardization from year to year from the same manufacturer (other than the SSD, usually). When HP, Dell, Lenovo, or ASUS refresh their laptop, usually the overall design of ports, body, and keyboard stay more or less the same for about 4 years or so, but the motherboard dimensions, ribbon connectors, cooling system, and batteries change for no real reason. A lot of components will have dimensions that differ by only a few millimeters but that's enough to make searching for replacement parts an ordeal. For example, if I could get a Thinkpad X1 Carbon what was guaranteed to have an upgradeable/interchangeable motherboard for the next 4-5 years I would gladly buy one. I don't even get why that's not currently the case, the current Thinkpad X1 Carbon more or less looks identical to the one from 6 years ago. Instead I buy whatever's cheapest every 2-3 years. It's so bad that the EU had to legislate USB-C because this problem manifested itself as hundreds of marginally incompatible barrel pin chargers. It's wasteful and annoying.
- fao_ 7y ago
  > If durable, maintainable, and resilient are your number one priority, maybe you want a desktop. It is trivial to open up the case and replace or upgrade components. I'm both confused and utterly baffled about why you think taking a full-blown desktop computer to conferences, hackathons, cafés, work, etc. is even an option. It feels like a common response on hacker news, and hell, even in developer circles in general at the moment, is the equivalent of: "I want X, Y, and Z, and we used to make things that satisfy those requirements, and we don't anymore. Why is that?" "You don't want Z, you want Q, which does X and Y" where Q is something that makes the whole point of X and Y impractical for the person's use-case. To belabour the point: I don't see how you get from "A slightly less-thin laptop that has some room for upgrades" to "A desktop computer that requires a separate monitor, a stable and available power supply, a table, and associated peripherals" Thinkpads used to be designed in a way that would allow upgrading and replacing of common components. Hell, it used to be the case that IBM/Lenovo had a line of thinkpads that were specifically designed for this sort of upgrading. Why aren't they still? There is a market for this (one only has to look at the prices and the demand of second-hand Thinkpads of that variety), the problem is that not only did laptop manufacturers realise that not allowing users to upgrade components, means that they can charge them again for a more powerful laptop in a few years time, but laptop manufacturers are trying to compete on Apple's "we have the thinnest machine in the world" front, for whatever reason.
danpalmer 7y ago
Long Term Support means a lot more for a drill where the requirements for drilling don't really change decade to decade. Supporting computing devices over longer periods than 5-10 years just doesn't really provide much benefit because of the exponential growth in computing power. What we do with that power may appear to be growing more slowly, but software really does do a lot more than it used to. If you want that level of long term support, you're likely doing it for business, in datacenters, and things like mainframes are an option. For those you can pay a bit extra and get that level of support, like the drill battery adapter. The comparison being made doesn't seem to hold in such a different market. Your drill doesn't need to go twice as fast to be useful today as it did 2 years ago.
- stingraycharles 7y ago
  On a high level, computing requirements don’t change that much; the biggest problem is our entire ecosystem’s expectations is growing as fast as our hardware gains in performance. It’s the mentality of the software industry as a whole. Making both pretty and lean versions of the same app is never an option; typically one just makes an electron app and calls it a day. Games are exempt from this and seem to typically target a large variety of hardware. I don’t know who started this, though. Whether it was the consumers who started buying new computer hardware much more frequently than they are buying drill machines, or the software vendors gradually bloating their apps forcing users to upgrade their hardware. But it seems to be state that we’re in.
  - rabidrat 7y ago
    Moore's Law is responsible. Computers in the 80s were much more modifiable and long-lasting, but back then 5 years was an absolute eternity for hardware performance. So we learned to buy cheaper computers because we'd have to replace them every 3-5 years anyway.
  - fao_ 7y ago
    > Making both pretty and lean versions of the same app is never an option To clarify this point, it is entirely an option. Most of the layout done with CSS, etc. these days could absolutely render on older machines if built using different tools. The problem is that a) people want to build it with what they are familiar with, which these days is web tech. That means that those specific abstractions do not exist in that space, and b) very few people these days have the skill, funding, and time to build those abstractions.
gwbas1c 7y ago
Look more closely at the example of the drill, with the exception of the batteries, can you go out and buy a new motor when it burns out? Can you go out and buy a new trigger? At a certain point, electronics becomes cheaper and more reliable as components get so tightly integrated that they aren't replaceable. Anyway, this makes me wonder if there's a niche for a "portable computer" that is comprised of standard, easily-replaceable parts. I probably wouldn't buy one, but I wonder who would?
- bochoh 7y ago
  The idea of the modular CPU / GPU on this is appealing if only for the idea that your GPU could be upgraded yearly instead of having to shell out for an entire machine. https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/283336-alienwares-latest-laptop-comes-with-upgradeable-cpu-gpu-options https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/283336-alienwares-latest-...
  - toast0 7y ago
    The idea is nice, but basically zero of these laptop ideas have turned into a worthwhile execution. Intel sockets offer at most one upgrade cycle, and of late require a firmware update for that, so really the upgrade potential is from a low end chip to a high end chip in the same architecture, but the socketed systems often cost a lot more than a soldered system. The GPU modules are also subject to the continued viability of the form factor. Recent trends for reduced GPU power consumption make this more likely to hold up, but still kind of iffy. Something with real potential for upgrades would be a standardized motherboard size, including z-height, and cooler positioning; then you could swap in a new board and reuse the chasis/display. Of course, you would need to standardize the type and position of display connections and connectors for keyboard and pointing device and battery and what not. I don't think the manufacturers would gain much though --- if it was useful to them for this to be standard across models and model years, we would see some of them with an internal standard instead of every model being similar but not the same on the inside.
  - gwbas1c 7y ago
    > GPU could be upgraded yearly That only works if there's no improvements other than pure speed. In reality, the bus and socket improve too. For example, if your GPU socket is new, and your GPU is an early generation, a die shrink due to transistor shrink might be pin compatible but faster. Otherwise, the next generation of GPU is probably going to require a different socket and/or bus, ect, ect, that it's uneconomic to support merely exchanging the GPU.
anderspitman 7y ago
The incentives simply aren't aligned. The root of the problem is that our economy depends on constant consumption. I'm not sure a company built around computers that last could ever compete.
- smolder 7y ago
  For industrial uses, where buyers care about total cost of ownership, there's room for that. Now that silicon precision improvements have such small performance returns, there's also much more room for "heirloom" tech for consumers.
  - bluGill 7y ago
    Industrial users have problems with electronics: the chip from a 60nm process still works fine, but the fab that makes them is closing and so they are forced to spend money on a new chip built on a 12nm process. (or whatever the latest fad is). The consumer mentality of replace with better is too big for the industrial users to count.
- fao_ 7y ago
  > The root of the problem is that our economy depends on constant consumption. I'm not sure a company built around computers that last could ever compete. If we take that as a given, surely that tells you that the economic system itself is not resilient or sustainable when introduced to climate change, then?
MrGilbert 7y ago
Well, one way would be to get a barebone laptop from an OEM like Clevo. As you can fit these with your own RAM, CPU and drive, it is quite servicable per definition. Of course, if the mainboard breaks, you need to rely on the manufacturer. But the same applies to the engine of the DeWalt drill, I guess. I mean... there are people out there that can fix the engine of the drill. I‘m pretty sure there are also people out there that can fix a mainboard.
- bluGill 7y ago
  There are people who can fix main boards. They fix cracks by soldering jumpers across it (I'm not sure how they deal with multi-layer boards). They replace capacitors almost without bothering to check if the old ones are still good. They can replace the other parts too if replacements exist: they have the diagnostics tools to figure out what is broke. They charge skilled labor prices for this service. Be prepared to pay thousands of dollars. It is almost always cheaper to replace the entire board than repair, but sometimes you depend on that exact computer (for timing reasons where a faster modern computer won't work). Or sometimes the board is tied to a much larger machine that would be expensive to replace.
  - vbezhenar 7y ago
    My iPhone had broken WiFi module. One guy removed it and soldered new. He used microscope and very tiny soldering iron. It looked like very skilled work for me. I was charged $50 for work, WiFi module and new battery (he replaced battery as well). I live in Kazakhstan, btw. It's interesting how economies change between very different countries. We are paying 20-40% premium for iPhones compared to US prices, but manual labor is very cheap, even skilled one. For American people right to repair sometimes sound like a fun thing to do. For Kazakhstani people right to repair might be a difference between using a phone or not.
    - singron 7y ago
      That reminds me of Baumol's Cost Disease[1]. Some industries become more efficient due to advances in technology (e.g. manufacturing and agriculture), but others do not (e.g. healthcare, education). Those other industries become more expensive in real terms since you have to pay people more to do the same job. E.g. in this case, the US economy is so productive, and manufacturing is so efficient, that repair (which isn't made much more efficient by technology) becomes more expensive. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease
ilikehurdles 7y ago
I still use my 2012 Macbook Pro Retina, as well as a 2015 one I got from my last job. The 2012 was the last laptop I bought with my own money, and it survived a good amount of drops and abuse. The 2015 has a completely unusably broken trackpad (funny, the only noticeable difference between these models was this stupid 3D/Haptic press feature that broke in the later model). The current one from my current job, much less than a year in, has several misfiring keys: my 'm' triggers multiple presses and I've had to erase several extras in this comment alone, the cmd key sometimes works sometimes doesn't, and several of the key caps have completely worn off from use. The LCD screen above the keyboard sometimes gets stuck in the wrong context. I don't know if anyone makes a tradesman's machine anymore, but Apple certainly does not.
- parasubvert 7y ago
  The 16 inch MacBook Pro feels like a return to what made the product great.
  - tonyarkles 7y ago
    Yeah, I feel like I lucked out. Had a 2010 13” MBP that I finally retired this year when I took on an iOS project and needed Catalina. There’s been a lot of complaining about MBPs over the years since I bought the previous one, but I am super super happy with this new one. (The 2010 did have an SSD and RAM upgrade; still surprisingly usable for the age)
- jacobsenscott 7y ago
  They'll replace the keyboard for you free of charge. It is a PITA because it usually takes a few days. But you can buy a new one and return when the finish the repairs - so long as they finish them within 14 days. But you'll never be able to go back after using the new 16" mbp that brought back the old keyboard.
ketzo 7y ago
Sort of a tragic commentary that the one link the author provides to a possible solution in the space currently 404's.
- 8bitsrule 7y ago
  Here it is (a solution in this space): https://web.archive.org/web/20190527172134/https://mntre.com/media/news_md/2019-05-20-reintroducing-reform.html https://web.archive.org/web/20190527172134/https://mntre.com...
  - arm 7y ago
    And here’s the current link on their website (for whatever reason, they moved it from (or renamed the directory from) 'news_md' to 'reform_md'): https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2019-05-20-reintroducing-reform.html https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2019-05-20-reintroducing-r...
noobermin 7y ago
If John Deere is any indication, corporations are taking after IT's business model as of late. We're moving backwards.
aidenn0 7y ago
FWIW while you can't get the Nickel-based batteries anymore, you can get Lithium based battery packs that fit the older tools (14.4V or 18V). You'll need a new charger, but can keep the tool.
phonon 7y ago
They are called workstation laptops...designed to be sturdy, upgradeable, lots of ports...you can get them from Dell, HP, Thinkpad P series...
jolmg 7y ago
> Does any computer manufacturer out there anywhere care about longevity like that, today? The Cadillac answer to that used to be “Thinkpad”, but those days are long gone and as far as I can tell there’s nothing else in this space. I don’t care about thin or light at all. I’m happy to carry a few extra pounds; these are my tools, and if that’s the price of durable, maintainable and resilient tools means a bit of extra weight in the bag I’ll pay it and smile. I just want to be able to fix it; I want something I can strip all the way down to standard parts with a standard screwdriver and replace piecemeal when it needs piecemeal replacing. Does anyone make anything like this anymore, a tradesman’s machine? Panasonic toughbooks. I have a CF-C2. Here's a couple of comments I did on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22122762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22122762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22122803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22122803 I also found the bottom strap/handle is made from a thermoplastic. When I got mine, it was too "open", which made the laptop jiggle a little while typing. I just took it off, and with a bit of patience, a heat gun, and a soldering iron (to seal a crack I did from improper use of the heat gun), I managed to adjust the shape so that it was more comfortable. I grips my hand better too. Here's a review Linus from LinusTechTips did on a newer model toughbook: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7rt6BZYscs&t=2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7rt6BZYscs&t=2s

76 points by luu 7y ago

Apple, or at least the Apple ecosystem, may have the best consistency across manufacturers. Maybe Dell falls into that category as well. The vast majority of technology sellers simply don't stay around long enough to have a long term plan, and I don't think many consider "Parts" to a line of business they give full support to.

Nullabillity 7y ago
Many do, they just don't advertise it very well. ASUS directed me to Asusparts[0] a few years ago when I was looking for a replacement battery. Apparently they still sell most of the parts for the original 2007 Eee PC 701![1] Lenovo's parts website seems less comprehensive from what I can tell, but their schematic view looks really useful.[2] If anything, Apple, with their commitment to lockouts and supply chain control, are the standouts in their outright hostility to repair. [0]: https://asusparts.eu/en/ https://asusparts.eu/en/ [1]: https://asusparts.eu/en/partfinder/Asus/Netbook/Eee%20PC/701 https://asusparts.eu/en/partfinder/Asus/Netbook/Eee%20PC/701 [2]: https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/se/en/products/laptops-and-netbooks/thinkpad-x-series-laptops/thinkpad-x220/4286/parts/display/schematic https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/se/en/products/laptops-and-netb...
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  Is this a joke re apple? They make some of the highest value preserving phones out there - period. Long after your supposed "standouts" in repairability heads to the landfill, apple's phones will be repaired and re-used and passed along to another user. Seriously - look at the prices for used apple products or if you go to sell an old phone - its incredible. The latest software is available to phones 6 or even 7 years old. I'm seriously curious - can you list phone from Samsung / HTC or whoever you consider to be a standout in not locking folks out from 7 years ago and the software platform that is available for it? The security updates being produced for it? I'm seriously very curious - I keep being told apple is terrible but no one will actually NAME a phone that lasts longer (I say this as my parents use their apple products for 5-7 years easily with a battery replacement when I come out to visit) - I could probably switch them to an HTC or other product as long as they could actually get maintained software and repairs for the 5+ years they keep their devices. Apple - they can just walk into to get things fixed.
  - Nullabillity 7y ago
    The thread so far was about laptops, so that's the context that in which I responded. I wish I had a good answer for phones.. Fairphone, maybe? That whole industry is a depressing dumpster fire. Though, once again, Apple manages to be by far the most hostile (bricking all phones with replaced displays, anyone?).
    - privateSFacct 7y ago
      The same is even more true for laptops. Have you priced out old laptops? An old sony or asus laptop has basically zero value. An old mac has value. I don't use mac's but my wife does. At the office we go through laptops in bulk (every 2 years basically). He used her laptop very successfully for something like 6-7 years (and apple had software that supported it). The only thing she needed to do was get a new battery for $130. That was walk in service. By contrast, ordering replacement batteries for laptops off amazon (asus / dell etc) - the things are TOTAL GARBAGE. Whatever lock down apple is doing in their supply chain is paying off in long term reliability. Interesting to see the downvotes though - I'll have to browse HN for them because it seems the comments that don't fit the going narrative get trashed. And yet no one can name the phone (or laptop) that holds value better than apple - despite claims that apple is the worst. Does that strike you as a bit weird? ALL other brands should be better if apple is really the worst. It's basically a set of lies being pumped out about apple's reliability, durability, longevitiy - and as people go out and buy crap phones from HTC etc that fill up landfills, use child labor, are manufactured with much less regard for the environment they pat themselves on the back. Apple supports out of warranty repairs, on a walk in/drop off basis in many cases, on items MUCH MUCH longer than almost all other manufacturers.
      - Nullabillity 7y ago
        My personal laptop (mostly used for travel these days) is still a 5 year old $800 ASUS ROG G551J. The battery did go bad, but I got a replacement in less than 24 hours (which is far from normal over here), and the installation was tool-free. I upgraded both the RAM and storage over time, which was trivial. Hell, they have an official guide on how to avoid voiding the warranty while doing it![0] [0]: https://rog.asus.com/articles/g-series-gaming-laptops/g551-upgrade-guide/ https://rog.asus.com/articles/g-series-gaming-laptops/g551-u...

smacktoward 7y ago

> Does anyone make anything like this anymore, a tradesman’s machine? One of the perplexing things about modernity is the way that capitalism, a system whose big strength is supposed to be the way it provides choices, in practice keeps producing markets where the available choices are only skin deep. There's a market-leading product, and there's a million minor variations on that market-leading product, but if you want something fundamentally different from that market-leading product, you're out of luck. If you want a smartphone, you're going to be buying a flat, featureless slab of glass with a soldered-on battery. Want a replaceable battery? Want a different form factor or a physical keyboard? Sorry, you're out of luck. If you want a TV, you're going to be buying a "smart" TV with a bunch of poorly written software that will be obsolete a year from now. Just want the display without the software? Sorry, you're out of luck. You can see this happening in non-tech markets too, like the car market, which is increasingly converging on the "crossover" layout as the One True Passenger Car. You can still buy other layouts, but the number of carmakers who offer those other layouts are dwindling fast. (Ford has famously already given up on them completely.) So we end up with these weird markets where there seems to be no end of choices available, but that's only true if your desires line up exactly with those of the average consumer. The farther they diverge from that golden mean, the quicker you find you really have no choices at all.

MadWombat 7y ago
> keeps producing markets where the available choices are only skin deep Because it turns out that catering to minority demands only works for some markets, but not others (i.e. all cell phones look and function the same, but there are dozens of different flavors and textures of peanut butter). And also, because it turns out that convincing the customer base that what you offer is what they want is easier than making the things they actually want (mostly because people rarely know what they want in the first place). Also, all three examples you mentioned have fairly straight forward reasons. There are no physical keyboards on phones because most people prefer more screen space and a keyboard takes space. There are no "dumb" TVs because people prefer their appliances to work out of the box and that is exactly what the "smart" TVs provide, you don't have to plug them into any other device to get them to show you content. And cars have been pretty standard for a while now, there might be some demand for a car with a dildo shaped joystick instead of a steering wheel, but maybe not enough to warrant actually making one.

tonyedgecombe 7y ago

>I don’t care about thin or light at all. I’m happy to carry a few extra pounds; That's a small niche now, most people don't want to lug a heavy laptop around with them.

NullPrefix 7y ago
You're thinking about tablets.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  No.
efreak 7y ago
There's a difference between _not heavy when carrying_ and _as light as possible_. As a simple example, using screws instead of glue/adhesive requires more space and more weight. The same for using socketed ram. None of this would affect usability, nor would they make it ugly or too heavy to carry. There's applications to this outside of repair, as well--I would have been quite happy to pay an extra $50 for my ($200) phone to have a 6Ah battery.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 7y ago

> I don’t care about thin or light at all. I’m happy to carry a few extra pounds; these are my tools, and if that’s the price of durable, maintainable and resilient tools means a bit of extra weight in the bag I’ll pay it and smile. I just want to be able to fix it; I want something I can strip all the way down to standard parts with a standard screwdriver and replace piecemeal when it needs piecemeal replacing. Does anyone make anything like this anymore, a tradesman’s machine? The MNTRE people are giving it a shot. Is anyone else, anywhere? If durable, maintainable, and resilient are your number one priority, maybe you want a desktop. It is trivial to open up the case and replace or upgrade components. Desktops also tend to last longer than laptops. It is harder to transport, but I am sure just like the various mechanics, you can come up with a rolling toolbox for your desktop that you can load into the back of your pickup truck. As a bonus, you can also get higher performance CPU's since you can deal with the heat better in a desktop case. I am sure that such a risk could easily last you 10 years, and it does seem like the perfect choice given your priorities.

CoolGuySteve 7y ago
I think the more annoying thing about modern laptops is the lack of standardization from year to year from the same manufacturer (other than the SSD, usually). When HP, Dell, Lenovo, or ASUS refresh their laptop, usually the overall design of ports, body, and keyboard stay more or less the same for about 4 years or so, but the motherboard dimensions, ribbon connectors, cooling system, and batteries change for no real reason. A lot of components will have dimensions that differ by only a few millimeters but that's enough to make searching for replacement parts an ordeal. For example, if I could get a Thinkpad X1 Carbon what was guaranteed to have an upgradeable/interchangeable motherboard for the next 4-5 years I would gladly buy one. I don't even get why that's not currently the case, the current Thinkpad X1 Carbon more or less looks identical to the one from 6 years ago. Instead I buy whatever's cheapest every 2-3 years. It's so bad that the EU had to legislate USB-C because this problem manifested itself as hundreds of marginally incompatible barrel pin chargers. It's wasteful and annoying.
fao_ 7y ago
> If durable, maintainable, and resilient are your number one priority, maybe you want a desktop. It is trivial to open up the case and replace or upgrade components. I'm both confused and utterly baffled about why you think taking a full-blown desktop computer to conferences, hackathons, cafés, work, etc. is even an option. It feels like a common response on hacker news, and hell, even in developer circles in general at the moment, is the equivalent of: "I want X, Y, and Z, and we used to make things that satisfy those requirements, and we don't anymore. Why is that?" "You don't want Z, you want Q, which does X and Y" where Q is something that makes the whole point of X and Y impractical for the person's use-case. To belabour the point: I don't see how you get from "A slightly less-thin laptop that has some room for upgrades" to "A desktop computer that requires a separate monitor, a stable and available power supply, a table, and associated peripherals" Thinkpads used to be designed in a way that would allow upgrading and replacing of common components. Hell, it used to be the case that IBM/Lenovo had a line of thinkpads that were specifically designed for this sort of upgrading. Why aren't they still? There is a market for this (one only has to look at the prices and the demand of second-hand Thinkpads of that variety), the problem is that not only did laptop manufacturers realise that not allowing users to upgrade components, means that they can charge them again for a more powerful laptop in a few years time, but laptop manufacturers are trying to compete on Apple's "we have the thinnest machine in the world" front, for whatever reason.

danpalmer 7y ago

Long Term Support means a lot more for a drill where the requirements for drilling don't really change decade to decade. Supporting computing devices over longer periods than 5-10 years just doesn't really provide much benefit because of the exponential growth in computing power. What we do with that power may appear to be growing more slowly, but software really does do a lot more than it used to. If you want that level of long term support, you're likely doing it for business, in datacenters, and things like mainframes are an option. For those you can pay a bit extra and get that level of support, like the drill battery adapter. The comparison being made doesn't seem to hold in such a different market. Your drill doesn't need to go twice as fast to be useful today as it did 2 years ago.

stingraycharles 7y ago
On a high level, computing requirements don’t change that much; the biggest problem is our entire ecosystem’s expectations is growing as fast as our hardware gains in performance. It’s the mentality of the software industry as a whole. Making both pretty and lean versions of the same app is never an option; typically one just makes an electron app and calls it a day. Games are exempt from this and seem to typically target a large variety of hardware. I don’t know who started this, though. Whether it was the consumers who started buying new computer hardware much more frequently than they are buying drill machines, or the software vendors gradually bloating their apps forcing users to upgrade their hardware. But it seems to be state that we’re in.
- rabidrat 7y ago
  Moore's Law is responsible. Computers in the 80s were much more modifiable and long-lasting, but back then 5 years was an absolute eternity for hardware performance. So we learned to buy cheaper computers because we'd have to replace them every 3-5 years anyway.
- fao_ 7y ago
  > Making both pretty and lean versions of the same app is never an option To clarify this point, it is entirely an option. Most of the layout done with CSS, etc. these days could absolutely render on older machines if built using different tools. The problem is that a) people want to build it with what they are familiar with, which these days is web tech. That means that those specific abstractions do not exist in that space, and b) very few people these days have the skill, funding, and time to build those abstractions.

gwbas1c 7y ago

Look more closely at the example of the drill, with the exception of the batteries, can you go out and buy a new motor when it burns out? Can you go out and buy a new trigger? At a certain point, electronics becomes cheaper and more reliable as components get so tightly integrated that they aren't replaceable. Anyway, this makes me wonder if there's a niche for a "portable computer" that is comprised of standard, easily-replaceable parts. I probably wouldn't buy one, but I wonder who would?

bochoh 7y ago
The idea of the modular CPU / GPU on this is appealing if only for the idea that your GPU could be upgraded yearly instead of having to shell out for an entire machine. https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/283336-alienwares-latest-laptop-comes-with-upgradeable-cpu-gpu-options https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/283336-alienwares-latest-...
- toast0 7y ago
  The idea is nice, but basically zero of these laptop ideas have turned into a worthwhile execution. Intel sockets offer at most one upgrade cycle, and of late require a firmware update for that, so really the upgrade potential is from a low end chip to a high end chip in the same architecture, but the socketed systems often cost a lot more than a soldered system. The GPU modules are also subject to the continued viability of the form factor. Recent trends for reduced GPU power consumption make this more likely to hold up, but still kind of iffy. Something with real potential for upgrades would be a standardized motherboard size, including z-height, and cooler positioning; then you could swap in a new board and reuse the chasis/display. Of course, you would need to standardize the type and position of display connections and connectors for keyboard and pointing device and battery and what not. I don't think the manufacturers would gain much though --- if it was useful to them for this to be standard across models and model years, we would see some of them with an internal standard instead of every model being similar but not the same on the inside.
- gwbas1c 7y ago
  > GPU could be upgraded yearly That only works if there's no improvements other than pure speed. In reality, the bus and socket improve too. For example, if your GPU socket is new, and your GPU is an early generation, a die shrink due to transistor shrink might be pin compatible but faster. Otherwise, the next generation of GPU is probably going to require a different socket and/or bus, ect, ect, that it's uneconomic to support merely exchanging the GPU.

anderspitman 7y ago

The incentives simply aren't aligned. The root of the problem is that our economy depends on constant consumption. I'm not sure a company built around computers that last could ever compete.

smolder 7y ago
For industrial uses, where buyers care about total cost of ownership, there's room for that. Now that silicon precision improvements have such small performance returns, there's also much more room for "heirloom" tech for consumers.
- bluGill 7y ago
  Industrial users have problems with electronics: the chip from a 60nm process still works fine, but the fab that makes them is closing and so they are forced to spend money on a new chip built on a 12nm process. (or whatever the latest fad is). The consumer mentality of replace with better is too big for the industrial users to count.
fao_ 7y ago
> The root of the problem is that our economy depends on constant consumption. I'm not sure a company built around computers that last could ever compete. If we take that as a given, surely that tells you that the economic system itself is not resilient or sustainable when introduced to climate change, then?

MrGilbert 7y ago

Well, one way would be to get a barebone laptop from an OEM like Clevo. As you can fit these with your own RAM, CPU and drive, it is quite servicable per definition. Of course, if the mainboard breaks, you need to rely on the manufacturer. But the same applies to the engine of the DeWalt drill, I guess. I mean... there are people out there that can fix the engine of the drill. I‘m pretty sure there are also people out there that can fix a mainboard.

bluGill 7y ago
There are people who can fix main boards. They fix cracks by soldering jumpers across it (I'm not sure how they deal with multi-layer boards). They replace capacitors almost without bothering to check if the old ones are still good. They can replace the other parts too if replacements exist: they have the diagnostics tools to figure out what is broke. They charge skilled labor prices for this service. Be prepared to pay thousands of dollars. It is almost always cheaper to replace the entire board than repair, but sometimes you depend on that exact computer (for timing reasons where a faster modern computer won't work). Or sometimes the board is tied to a much larger machine that would be expensive to replace.
- vbezhenar 7y ago
  My iPhone had broken WiFi module. One guy removed it and soldered new. He used microscope and very tiny soldering iron. It looked like very skilled work for me. I was charged $50 for work, WiFi module and new battery (he replaced battery as well). I live in Kazakhstan, btw. It's interesting how economies change between very different countries. We are paying 20-40% premium for iPhones compared to US prices, but manual labor is very cheap, even skilled one. For American people right to repair sometimes sound like a fun thing to do. For Kazakhstani people right to repair might be a difference between using a phone or not.
  - singron 7y ago
    That reminds me of Baumol's Cost Disease[1]. Some industries become more efficient due to advances in technology (e.g. manufacturing and agriculture), but others do not (e.g. healthcare, education). Those other industries become more expensive in real terms since you have to pay people more to do the same job. E.g. in this case, the US economy is so productive, and manufacturing is so efficient, that repair (which isn't made much more efficient by technology) becomes more expensive. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease

ilikehurdles 7y ago

I still use my 2012 Macbook Pro Retina, as well as a 2015 one I got from my last job. The 2012 was the last laptop I bought with my own money, and it survived a good amount of drops and abuse. The 2015 has a completely unusably broken trackpad (funny, the only noticeable difference between these models was this stupid 3D/Haptic press feature that broke in the later model). The current one from my current job, much less than a year in, has several misfiring keys: my 'm' triggers multiple presses and I've had to erase several extras in this comment alone, the cmd key sometimes works sometimes doesn't, and several of the key caps have completely worn off from use. The LCD screen above the keyboard sometimes gets stuck in the wrong context. I don't know if anyone makes a tradesman's machine anymore, but Apple certainly does not.

parasubvert 7y ago
The 16 inch MacBook Pro feels like a return to what made the product great.
- tonyarkles 7y ago
  Yeah, I feel like I lucked out. Had a 2010 13” MBP that I finally retired this year when I took on an iOS project and needed Catalina. There’s been a lot of complaining about MBPs over the years since I bought the previous one, but I am super super happy with this new one. (The 2010 did have an SSD and RAM upgrade; still surprisingly usable for the age)
jacobsenscott 7y ago
They'll replace the keyboard for you free of charge. It is a PITA because it usually takes a few days. But you can buy a new one and return when the finish the repairs - so long as they finish them within 14 days. But you'll never be able to go back after using the new 16" mbp that brought back the old keyboard.

ketzo 7y ago

Sort of a tragic commentary that the one link the author provides to a possible solution in the space currently 404's.

8bitsrule 7y ago
Here it is (a solution in this space): https://web.archive.org/web/20190527172134/https://mntre.com/media/news_md/2019-05-20-reintroducing-reform.html https://web.archive.org/web/20190527172134/https://mntre.com...
- arm 7y ago
  And here’s the current link on their website (for whatever reason, they moved it from (or renamed the directory from) 'news_md' to 'reform_md'): https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2019-05-20-reintroducing-reform.html https://mntre.com/media/reform_md/2019-05-20-reintroducing-r...

noobermin 7y ago

If John Deere is any indication, corporations are taking after IT's business model as of late. We're moving backwards.

aidenn0 7y ago

FWIW while you can't get the Nickel-based batteries anymore, you can get Lithium based battery packs that fit the older tools (14.4V or 18V). You'll need a new charger, but can keep the tool.

phonon 7y ago

They are called workstation laptops...designed to be sturdy, upgradeable, lots of ports...you can get them from Dell, HP, Thinkpad P series...

jolmg 7y ago

> Does any computer manufacturer out there anywhere care about longevity like that, today? The Cadillac answer to that used to be “Thinkpad”, but those days are long gone and as far as I can tell there’s nothing else in this space. I don’t care about thin or light at all. I’m happy to carry a few extra pounds; these are my tools, and if that’s the price of durable, maintainable and resilient tools means a bit of extra weight in the bag I’ll pay it and smile. I just want to be able to fix it; I want something I can strip all the way down to standard parts with a standard screwdriver and replace piecemeal when it needs piecemeal replacing. Does anyone make anything like this anymore, a tradesman’s machine? Panasonic toughbooks. I have a CF-C2. Here's a couple of comments I did on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22122762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22122762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22122803 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22122803 I also found the bottom strap/handle is made from a thermoplastic. When I got mine, it was too "open", which made the laptop jiggle a little while typing. I just took it off, and with a bit of patience, a heat gun, and a soldering iron (to seal a crack I did from improper use of the heat gun), I managed to adjust the shape so that it was more comfortable. I grips my hand better too. Here's a review Linus from LinusTechTips did on a newer model toughbook: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7rt6BZYscs&t=2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7rt6BZYscs&t=2s