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The best thing that could ever happen to Canada would get rid of that god awful TN-Visa. TN - Talent Nuke. Completely sucks us dry of people moving to the US

The best thing that could ever happen to Canada would get rid of that god awful TN-Visa. TN - Talent Nuke. Completely sucks us dry of people moving to the US.

ma2rten 7y ago
I don't think keeping people in your country by making it harder to leave is a good strategy.
- cmrdporcupine 7y ago
  IMHO when education is subsidized by public funds (which it is here), those funds should have to be repaid if you're leaving the country within a certain number of years or before you've paid some amount in income tax. That would improve the talent situation here.
  - shdh 7y ago
    People who are talented will still be poached and head down south. Restricting mobility won't stop anything.
  - noarchy 7y ago
    That would also create more incentives to simply do one's education south of the border, rather than risk being shackled by government efforts to halt one's movement.
    - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
      Have fun paying 4-5 times more for the same education then...
      - noarchy 7y ago
        People are eyeing the salaries they can get with that education. I can see plenty of people willing to swallow that cost in exchange for not having the government tying an anchor around their legs.
  - liamdiprose 7y ago
    In New Zealand, the government funds tertiary education with a zero-interest loan. If you move/work overseas, it becomes a regular loan with 4% interest. It gives some pressure to stay in NZ, but in reality, talented engineers can get over double their salary abroad.
ajayyy 7y ago
Locking people in is never going to solve anything.
kaaie 7y ago
Alternatively, if wages were competitive in Canada (even considering cost of living and health care) there would be no reason to move. Personally, I'd much rather be in Canada to be near my family but I'd be making 1/2 the wage and have less talent to learn and grow from.
- prlambert 7y ago
  Yes there still would be: weather. There's literally no place in Canada that doesn't have a generally unpleasant outdoor experience for at least half the year. I say that as a proud Canadian. It's honestly the main thing holding my family from moving back. My wife is from Vancouver and hates snow. I'm from Calgary and can't take rain (I did 3 winters straight in Vancouver promising myself to never do another until I finally got out). We've been looking for somewhere in Canada and we can't find a solution. It may sound small but it has a major impact on our happiness, energy levels, and overall well-being.
  - frandroid 7y ago
    Toronto has none of Vancouver's rain and almost none of Calgary's snow. I wear running shoes for all save maybe 3 or 4 weeks of winter. -15 is considered a deep freeze and happens about 3 times per winter. What are you waiting for?
    - prlambert 7y ago
      My wife is a UofT grad, so spent 4 years in Toronto. That's where her snow feelings come from – she still tells stories of marching to class in -20C and snow. It may not be Calgary, but it's not California either. Maybe we're wimps, but such is the situation we find ourselves in! Maybe we'll be back some day. Toronto is the most likely. On topic for the parent – we're both Googlers but right now Google has no tech employees in Toronto proper (it's all sales and marketing). Waterloo is the only product/eng office and that's a tough commute. I'm not sure if that is changing with this announcement.
      - 7y ago
FpUser 7y ago
Are you proposing tech version of Iron Curtain? I think the best solution for Canada is to try something that attracts the people rather then have them seeking greener pastures. Otherwise they'd leave TN-1 or not.
- wenc 7y ago
  I think companies like Shopify are destination companies to work for in Canada. Ottawa is not a destination town for most, but people seem to be willing to move there just to work for Shopify.
fredophile 7y ago
I moved to the US from Canada on a TN. I would've liked to stay where I was but the local job market wasn't great at the time. At the time I viewed it as temporary. Now I have no plans to go back. I'm making twice the base salary and I'm in an area with a significantly lower cost of living. The TN wasn't responsible for my leaving and it isn't the reason I'm staying away.
- jariel 7y ago
  You actually just proved the opposite: your TN was the thing that got you a job paying 2x as much, gave you your foot in the door and exposure, and some time to establish longer-term plans. Without the TN it's likely you may not have been hired because it's not worth the effort for most companies: T1 is easy, then once you're in they can process it more. FYI this is not an argument for or against TN.
  - balfirevic 7y ago
    You might not have meant it like that, but to me it sounds like a great argument in favor of TN (I'm from neither Canada nor US, for what it's worth).
    - jariel 7y ago
      From a classically liberal perspective, it would seem like an argument for TN. i.e. you see the world in terms of 'how does this law help me now'. But from almost any other perspective it's not. TN visas are mostly 'one way' - to America. It's an opportunity to suck out the best talent (the fruit of public education) for no cost. Without real reciprocity, there's no benefit to Canadians who wouldn't use the opportunity. Shockingly, neither government really keeps that much data on TN. Our incompetent governments have really little insight into what works and what does not. A TN is a 'stamp on your passport' that you get at the airport, it should be more centralized. An easy solution to the asymmetry would simply be to make it '1 for 1', i.e. one American goes to Canada for every reverse. I don't believe these are 'national/communitarian' vs. 'liberal' arguments, there's many situations we can have our cate and eat it.

The best thing that could ever happen to Canada would get rid of that god awful TN-Visa. TN - Talent Nuke. Completely sucks us dry of people moving to the US.

ma2rten 7y ago

I don't think keeping people in your country by making it harder to leave is a good strategy.

cmrdporcupine 7y ago
IMHO when education is subsidized by public funds (which it is here), those funds should have to be repaid if you're leaving the country within a certain number of years or before you've paid some amount in income tax. That would improve the talent situation here.
- shdh 7y ago
  People who are talented will still be poached and head down south. Restricting mobility won't stop anything.
- noarchy 7y ago
  That would also create more incentives to simply do one's education south of the border, rather than risk being shackled by government efforts to halt one's movement.
  - cmrdporcupine 7y ago
    Have fun paying 4-5 times more for the same education then...
    - noarchy 7y ago
      People are eyeing the salaries they can get with that education. I can see plenty of people willing to swallow that cost in exchange for not having the government tying an anchor around their legs.
- liamdiprose 7y ago
  In New Zealand, the government funds tertiary education with a zero-interest loan. If you move/work overseas, it becomes a regular loan with 4% interest. It gives some pressure to stay in NZ, but in reality, talented engineers can get over double their salary abroad.

ajayyy 7y ago

Locking people in is never going to solve anything.

kaaie 7y ago

Alternatively, if wages were competitive in Canada (even considering cost of living and health care) there would be no reason to move. Personally, I'd much rather be in Canada to be near my family but I'd be making 1/2 the wage and have less talent to learn and grow from.

prlambert 7y ago
Yes there still would be: weather. There's literally no place in Canada that doesn't have a generally unpleasant outdoor experience for at least half the year. I say that as a proud Canadian. It's honestly the main thing holding my family from moving back. My wife is from Vancouver and hates snow. I'm from Calgary and can't take rain (I did 3 winters straight in Vancouver promising myself to never do another until I finally got out). We've been looking for somewhere in Canada and we can't find a solution. It may sound small but it has a major impact on our happiness, energy levels, and overall well-being.
- frandroid 7y ago
  Toronto has none of Vancouver's rain and almost none of Calgary's snow. I wear running shoes for all save maybe 3 or 4 weeks of winter. -15 is considered a deep freeze and happens about 3 times per winter. What are you waiting for?
  - prlambert 7y ago
    My wife is a UofT grad, so spent 4 years in Toronto. That's where her snow feelings come from – she still tells stories of marching to class in -20C and snow. It may not be Calgary, but it's not California either. Maybe we're wimps, but such is the situation we find ourselves in! Maybe we'll be back some day. Toronto is the most likely. On topic for the parent – we're both Googlers but right now Google has no tech employees in Toronto proper (it's all sales and marketing). Waterloo is the only product/eng office and that's a tough commute. I'm not sure if that is changing with this announcement.
    - 7y ago

FpUser 7y ago

Are you proposing tech version of Iron Curtain? I think the best solution for Canada is to try something that attracts the people rather then have them seeking greener pastures. Otherwise they'd leave TN-1 or not.

wenc 7y ago
I think companies like Shopify are destination companies to work for in Canada. Ottawa is not a destination town for most, but people seem to be willing to move there just to work for Shopify.

fredophile 7y ago

I moved to the US from Canada on a TN. I would've liked to stay where I was but the local job market wasn't great at the time. At the time I viewed it as temporary. Now I have no plans to go back. I'm making twice the base salary and I'm in an area with a significantly lower cost of living. The TN wasn't responsible for my leaving and it isn't the reason I'm staying away.

jariel 7y ago
You actually just proved the opposite: your TN was the thing that got you a job paying 2x as much, gave you your foot in the door and exposure, and some time to establish longer-term plans. Without the TN it's likely you may not have been hired because it's not worth the effort for most companies: T1 is easy, then once you're in they can process it more. FYI this is not an argument for or against TN.
- balfirevic 7y ago
  You might not have meant it like that, but to me it sounds like a great argument in favor of TN (I'm from neither Canada nor US, for what it's worth).
  - jariel 7y ago
    From a classically liberal perspective, it would seem like an argument for TN. i.e. you see the world in terms of 'how does this law help me now'. But from almost any other perspective it's not. TN visas are mostly 'one way' - to America. It's an opportunity to suck out the best talent (the fruit of public education) for no cost. Without real reciprocity, there's no benefit to Canadians who wouldn't use the opportunity. Shockingly, neither government really keeps that much data on TN. Our incompetent governments have really little insight into what works and what does not. A TN is a 'stamp on your passport' that you get at the airport, it should be more centralized. An easy solution to the asymmetry would simply be to make it '1 for 1', i.e. one American goes to Canada for every reverse. I don't believe these are 'national/communitarian' vs. 'liberal' arguments, there's many situations we can have our cate and eat it.