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This sounds like a situation where no one can win 100% of the time. Some people who are left alone after leaving the church complain that they're "alienated" by

This sounds like a situation where no one can win 100% of the time. Some people who are left alone after leaving the church complain that they're "alienated" by their neighbors, while those whose neighbors try to keep them involved are victims of "invasive harassment". And those who are content don't mention it, so no one hears about them. Any time I've heard of someone wishing not to be contacted, I've seen members of the church respect that desire. Of course that doesn't stop everyone (because not everyone may be aware of that desire). Instead of looking to criticize, please try to understand that people are usually just trying to be friendly and respectful, even if it doesn't always seem that way.

dkarl 7y ago
> Of course that doesn't stop everyone (because not everyone may be aware of that desire). This is only true to the extent that the church is extremely efficient at tracking down ex-members and sharing this information with local congregations and extremely inefficient at remembering that people have requested multiple times with multiple authorities never to be contacted again. People are visited by members of the church, acting as members of the church, introducing themselves as representatives of the church, visiting an address given to them by the church, and asking for a person they've never met by name, at an address the person has recently moved to after leaving the church. Again, I've witnessed this firsthand, in front of my own eyes. Think of the effort it takes to pull that off. It's not an innocent oopsie.
- curiousgeorgio 7y ago
  "...visiting an address given to them by the church" If that person is really an "ex-member" (meaning they had their name removed from the church's records), then this simply could not have happened, at least not in the name of the church. I've seen firsthand what happens to a congregation's records when someone removes their name (no surprise - their name, address, etc are removed from the list, and there's no conspiracy of tracking people behind their backs as you seem to imply). That said, it's certainly possible that someone was operating on old data or otherwise mistaken (maybe the person visiting just asked another neighbor about the person who lived there, not knowing the history, but trying to be friendly?), but I can assure you that the church would not give someone a name and address of an ex-member who's had their name removed from the records. ADDED: To respond to a couple of replies here: I suspect the church's central records (in SLC) may retain some data about ex-members (I have no firsthand experience there one way or another) - at least where permissible by local privacy laws, but I've dealt with records at the congregation level for years (which is what missionaries or other members would use to contact someone), and I can definitively say that ex-members' info is removed from those records (not just marked as "inactive" or otherwise). Does that mean you will never be contacted by a member of the church again in your life? Absolutely not (for reasons explained above that have nothing to do with the church's records). You will have the same chance of being contacted by a well-meaning member or missionary as anyone else in your vicinity (which is more than many people realize).
  - godelski 7y ago
    > If that person is really an "ex-member" (meaning they had their name removed from the church's records), This is the issue. The names don't get removed. Everyone that leaves is just "inactive". Tell me you don't see that. Tell me you don't see people talking about how to get them active again. Because I've been to a lot of wards and seen that discussion in every single one. "They are just inactive". I've told members to their face that I left, and they have responded "oh, you you're inactive?" I guess not attending church for over a decade and having a bad taste in my mouth isn't leaving, it is inactive. We don't do this in normal society. If you stop showing up to play sports with your friends, you aren't considered a team member anymore. Especially after you tell them "I don't want to be on the team anymore." How would you feel if everyone on that team just kept saying "oh, they're just taking a break. They'll come back." You know, decades after you left...
    - curiousgeorgio 7y ago
      > The names don't get removed. Everyone that leaves is just "inactive". Tell me you don't see that. I don't see that. If they're removed, they're removed, at least from any lists that local leaders, members or missionaries could see.
      - dkarl 7y ago
        > If they're removed, they're removed, at least from any lists that local leaders, members or missionaries could see. This is exactly the kind of dishonest bullshit line that local leaders use when people ask to be removed and not contacted again. I don't know how these "lists" work internally in the church, but local leaders can happily say, "Sure, we'll remove you from the list. Done! No more visits!" knowing that they haven't done what the person requested, knowing that the church will continue to send people to that person's home, even if they move hundreds of miles away. They believe this is the right thing to do. It is the right thing to do for a believing Mormon, which is why it's so important to call it out in public. The only way they will back off from this kind of behavior is if it harms the public image of the church.
godelski 7y ago
> This sounds like a situation where no one can win 100% of the time. Some people who are left alone after leaving the church complain that they're "alienated" by their neighbors, while those whose neighbors try to keep them involved are victims of "invasive harassment". You're getting downvoted because both can be true. How would you feel if your closest friends and/or family stopped talking to you because of how they voted? Or if they didn't stop talking, if they only talked about how you voted wrong (you know, basically Thanksgiving dinner but more frequently). What people miss is their friends and family. And in the end, do you really want a friendship back if you were only friends because you shared the same religion? That's what these people are saying. I say that as someone who went through it. As far as the missionary problem, dkarl explained that pretty well.
- alanwreath 7y ago
  I've had something similar happen to me. My brother left the church and ever since the only thing he wants to do is talk to me (and my kids) about how I'm wrong to stay in the church. I don't recall us ever having a religious conversations prior to his exit so it's been a bit jarring. I get that he possibly feels he's got to share his point of view, but at some time (especially after he's made his point) he's got to let me live under my own understanding. And anyways I'd just like my brother back, he was fun.

dkarl 7y ago

> Of course that doesn't stop everyone (because not everyone may be aware of that desire). This is only true to the extent that the church is extremely efficient at tracking down ex-members and sharing this information with local congregations and extremely inefficient at remembering that people have requested multiple times with multiple authorities never to be contacted again. People are visited by members of the church, acting as members of the church, introducing themselves as representatives of the church, visiting an address given to them by the church, and asking for a person they've never met by name, at an address the person has recently moved to after leaving the church. Again, I've witnessed this firsthand, in front of my own eyes. Think of the effort it takes to pull that off. It's not an innocent oopsie.

curiousgeorgio 7y ago
"...visiting an address given to them by the church" If that person is really an "ex-member" (meaning they had their name removed from the church's records), then this simply could not have happened, at least not in the name of the church. I've seen firsthand what happens to a congregation's records when someone removes their name (no surprise - their name, address, etc are removed from the list, and there's no conspiracy of tracking people behind their backs as you seem to imply). That said, it's certainly possible that someone was operating on old data or otherwise mistaken (maybe the person visiting just asked another neighbor about the person who lived there, not knowing the history, but trying to be friendly?), but I can assure you that the church would not give someone a name and address of an ex-member who's had their name removed from the records. ADDED: To respond to a couple of replies here: I suspect the church's central records (in SLC) may retain some data about ex-members (I have no firsthand experience there one way or another) - at least where permissible by local privacy laws, but I've dealt with records at the congregation level for years (which is what missionaries or other members would use to contact someone), and I can definitively say that ex-members' info is removed from those records (not just marked as "inactive" or otherwise). Does that mean you will never be contacted by a member of the church again in your life? Absolutely not (for reasons explained above that have nothing to do with the church's records). You will have the same chance of being contacted by a well-meaning member or missionary as anyone else in your vicinity (which is more than many people realize).
- godelski 7y ago
  > If that person is really an "ex-member" (meaning they had their name removed from the church's records), This is the issue. The names don't get removed. Everyone that leaves is just "inactive". Tell me you don't see that. Tell me you don't see people talking about how to get them active again. Because I've been to a lot of wards and seen that discussion in every single one. "They are just inactive". I've told members to their face that I left, and they have responded "oh, you you're inactive?" I guess not attending church for over a decade and having a bad taste in my mouth isn't leaving, it is inactive. We don't do this in normal society. If you stop showing up to play sports with your friends, you aren't considered a team member anymore. Especially after you tell them "I don't want to be on the team anymore." How would you feel if everyone on that team just kept saying "oh, they're just taking a break. They'll come back." You know, decades after you left...
  - curiousgeorgio 7y ago
    > The names don't get removed. Everyone that leaves is just "inactive". Tell me you don't see that. I don't see that. If they're removed, they're removed, at least from any lists that local leaders, members or missionaries could see.
    - dkarl 7y ago
      > If they're removed, they're removed, at least from any lists that local leaders, members or missionaries could see. This is exactly the kind of dishonest bullshit line that local leaders use when people ask to be removed and not contacted again. I don't know how these "lists" work internally in the church, but local leaders can happily say, "Sure, we'll remove you from the list. Done! No more visits!" knowing that they haven't done what the person requested, knowing that the church will continue to send people to that person's home, even if they move hundreds of miles away. They believe this is the right thing to do. It is the right thing to do for a believing Mormon, which is why it's so important to call it out in public. The only way they will back off from this kind of behavior is if it harms the public image of the church.

godelski 7y ago

> This sounds like a situation where no one can win 100% of the time. Some people who are left alone after leaving the church complain that they're "alienated" by their neighbors, while those whose neighbors try to keep them involved are victims of "invasive harassment". You're getting downvoted because both can be true. How would you feel if your closest friends and/or family stopped talking to you because of how they voted? Or if they didn't stop talking, if they only talked about how you voted wrong (you know, basically Thanksgiving dinner but more frequently). What people miss is their friends and family. And in the end, do you really want a friendship back if you were only friends because you shared the same religion? That's what these people are saying. I say that as someone who went through it. As far as the missionary problem, dkarl explained that pretty well.

alanwreath 7y ago
I've had something similar happen to me. My brother left the church and ever since the only thing he wants to do is talk to me (and my kids) about how I'm wrong to stay in the church. I don't recall us ever having a religious conversations prior to his exit so it's been a bit jarring. I get that he possibly feels he's got to share his point of view, but at some time (especially after he's made his point) he's got to let me live under my own understanding. And anyways I'd just like my brother back, he was fun.