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> It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. This is definitely not true. As a Utah native and one who left for my own re

> It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. This is definitely not true. As a Utah native and one who left for my own reasons and still has family in the church, I would say that this statement is completely false. The Mormon church does not practice nor endorse any doctrine relating to shunning or harassment. Just because you left with some personality conflicts and bad terms with members doesn't mean anything. Statements like these generally do no good for anyone, and only further radicalize opposing views instead of urging people to engage in an meaningful discussion.

jquery 7y ago
This was my experience as well (Utah native). I did not experience any shunning when I left, nor have others in my extended family. Any shunning I have seen was due to other factors than merely leaving, such as the reasons behind leaving (one of my cousins was shunned for drug dealing and running from the law, not for leaving). The Mormon church has a lot of experience with people leaving and appears to handle it pretty well in general. Of course leaving a religion is a hard and often agonizing decision and is painful personally, and people sometimes project these feelings onto others.
dkarl 7y ago
I have a close friend who experienced this. Just because the church has no official policy doesn't mean it doesn't happen. People showing up at your door for years when you've repeatedly asked for it to stop happening, including new addresses you move to after asking not to be contacted again (I've witnessed this personally, and it is deeply distressing and invasive), is harassment no matter what the intention behind it. And of course there is no official policy of "shunning," but individuals among your friends and family can be counseled that contact with you seems to be interfering with their faith and should be curtailed for their own spiritual good.
- tomrod 7y ago
  Very much this. Here is a comment where I detail the organizational trends that I believe justify my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22276276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22276276
- curiousgeorgio 7y ago
  This sounds like a situation where no one can win 100% of the time. Some people who are left alone after leaving the church complain that they're "alienated" by their neighbors, while those whose neighbors try to keep them involved are victims of "invasive harassment". And those who are content don't mention it, so no one hears about them. Any time I've heard of someone wishing not to be contacted, I've seen members of the church respect that desire. Of course that doesn't stop everyone (because not everyone may be aware of that desire). Instead of looking to criticize, please try to understand that people are usually just trying to be friendly and respectful, even if it doesn't always seem that way.
  - dkarl 7y ago
    > Of course that doesn't stop everyone (because not everyone may be aware of that desire). This is only true to the extent that the church is extremely efficient at tracking down ex-members and sharing this information with local congregations and extremely inefficient at remembering that people have requested multiple times with multiple authorities never to be contacted again. People are visited by members of the church, acting as members of the church, introducing themselves as representatives of the church, visiting an address given to them by the church, and asking for a person they've never met by name, at an address the person has recently moved to after leaving the church. Again, I've witnessed this firsthand, in front of my own eyes. Think of the effort it takes to pull that off. It's not an innocent oopsie.
    - curiousgeorgio 7y ago
      "...visiting an address given to them by the church" If that person is really an "ex-member" (meaning they had their name removed from the church's records), then this simply could not have happened, at least not in the name of the church. I've seen firsthand what happens to a congregation's records when someone removes their name (no surprise - their name, address, etc are removed from the list, and there's no conspiracy of tracking people behind their backs as you seem to imply). That said, it's certainly possible that someone was operating on old data or otherwise mistaken (maybe the person visiting just asked another neighbor about the person who lived there, not knowing the history, but trying to be friendly?), but I can assure you that the church would not give someone a name and address of an ex-member who's had their name removed from the records. ADDED: To respond to a couple of replies here: I suspect the church's central records (in SLC) may retain some data about ex-members (I have no firsthand experience there one way or another) - at least where permissible by local privacy laws, but I've dealt with records at the congregation level for years (which is what missionaries or other members would use to contact someone), and I can definitively say that ex-members' info is removed from those records (not just marked as "inactive" or otherwise). Does that mean you will never be contacted by a member of the church again in your life? Absolutely not (for reasons explained above that have nothing to do with the church's records). You will have the same chance of being contacted by a well-meaning member or missionary as anyone else in your vicinity (which is more than many people realize).
- godelski 7y ago
  I can second this. I left over a decade ago. I've moved through four states, and probably a dozen addresses in that time. This is the first year where missionaries have not shown up at my door. I always had the same conversation with them: "Elders, I left the church for a reason and have no desire to come back. If you ever need water or to use the restroom, you are welcome to come by. I understand that what you are doing is hard, but you are not welcome to teach." I would never see the same elders twice. (I also detailed some of my leaving in hopes that it helps others)
  - jacurtis 7y ago
    I can third this. I left about 7 years ago. I have moved from Wisconsin, to North Carolina, to Virginia, to Texas, and then to Washington. The Mormon church managed to find me each time. (I briefly moved to Pennsylvania for work for about 6 months between living in NC and VA, and that was the one time they never found me). I have always rejected all attempts to "re-activate" me. I have never provided notice of my leaving, and I have never as much as attended church once in any of these locations. Several of the moves I didn't even leave forwarding addresses or change of address at the post office. Heck about a year ago I missed some important documents from the IRS, because even they didn't know my new address. They were contacting a previous address, yet the Mormon church had already visited me (against my requests) a total of three times at that new address. The Mormon church in fact does encourage harassment of ex members, they just don't advertise it as harassment. I am assuming the top comment in this feed that claims they never promote harassment is probably from a current member. The church promotes and encourages members to visit ex-members "out of love" to "save them". It even goes as far as assigning certain members to "re-activate" specific lost members as a task or chore that they must report back progress on. So the members are harassing, but they do it under the guise of "love" and "salvation". The leaders of the church teach this twice a year in their worldwide broadcast conference (General Conference) where they tell stories (generally fictitious but claiming to be true-to-life) about how active members have gone to ex-members' homes and pushed and prodded for months and years to get members to re-activate. They will hail these persistent efforts to ignore the privacy requests of the ex-members and to push them even despite threats, because according to the story it eventually worked. They will laugh and say that "the spirit" will eventually get through to these ex-members if you just push them hard enough. This is all harassment. Yes, it is done naively from brainwashed members who think they are helping, but it is indeed harassment. Imagine breaking up with a significant other who then continues to say they know you were meant for each other. They keep showing up at your work and at your house trying to get you to fall back in love with them. They are convinced that if they insert themselves back into your life that you will feel that love again. But you want nothing to do with this person. That person feels like they are doing something out of love, but to you it is harassment. I've watched countless families destroyed over mormonism. It is toxic, but in the most crafty ways possible. Looking back, I did it all. I harrassed exmembers and gained pleasure from it. I thought I was truly helping them. We would laugh afterward at the threats we got. It was harrassement but I did it... i was brainwashed without realizing it. I am sick to my stomach for admitting it, but I was guilty of these acts for 30 years. My perspective has changed with many years out of the church. But trust me, it is part of the Mormon culture. I speak from experience. I am guilty of harrassing hundreds of people against their will as a Mormon. Further, it is worth noting that according to Mormon doctrine, someone who is an active member and leaves the church is "an apostate". Depending how far they went through the ladder of Mormonism (such as going through the temple or even working at the temple) this actually destines someone to a future life in "outer darkness". This is a place reserved for basically only apostates (people that left the church). The mormon church has even taught terrorists and hitler will be able to seek forgiveness in the next life and go to a lower form of heaven, but not as low as outer darkness. This literally puts people who leave the church as worse than mass murderers.
bathtub365 7y ago
You are both making broad statements about the church and using anecdotes to support those statements. Why should I believe either of you?
- godelski 7y ago
  I'll support tomrod. Because his experience, though not exact, reflects mine. You can see many others coming out of the woodworks too. People that were taught to hide their feelings because that's the only way they can amend their relationships with their families. Eventually enough anecdotal evidence is just data. I'll give support to tomrod.
smohare 7y ago
Ostracizing ex-members occurs in nearly every tight knit social group, especially ones predicated upon adherence to some ideology. It’s a basic tenant of human tribalism, and religions are perhaps the most tribal social groups we have ever invented.
KingHerodCosell 7y ago
I live in Utah. When I resigned from the Mormon church the entire ward shunned me and I was ostracized by my family. My home teacher told me that the bishop told the men in the priesthood not to associate with me.
gremlinsinc 7y ago
I'd have to disagree it doesn't necessarily enforce or push shunment but there is enough 'only way to heaven' talk that it makes family relationships with those still in perilous, and if you're underage and mentally out... gl trying to convince parents to let you resign without getting kicked out of the house. I left and told my wife I was going to but still it's been a bit of a stressor in our relationship, but I couldn't no longer be part of such a malicious organization that causes so many suicides inside the state of Utah and has such a horrific history of racism.
imOut 7y ago
My experience leaving was as follows. I don't feel bad nor bitter but it did have some negative repercussions. I knew at 13 I did not believe and didn't want to follow but was forced to continue attending and forbidden to speak about my lack of belief to siblings. Come 18 I was suggested to move out which I happily did. My father sort of eventually accepted but would try to slip in religious sermons when he could. My mother on the other hand freaked completely out. Parents took all pictures of me down in the house leaving pictures of siblings. They gave a piece of property my non-Mormon grandfather left me to my brother with my mother calling and explaining they were doing this because I had left the church and she had never forgiven her mother and brother from leaving. Pretty rough but I got over it. Luckily I never built much social identity around the church so that was less of an issue. Also I left young and at 18 who cares what your parents think because they are stupid anyway :). I don't think ostracism or social punishment is official policy but it is there in practice and likely very pronounced for some people. I still have a sister and brother who are very and irrationally hostile towards me but the other siblings are friendly enough and seem ok. I don't talk about church nor discourage their belief, I simply don't participate. Mom never did get over it and we were never close again until her death. Sometimes she would call me saying crazy things but I didn't hate or resent her for it, I understand where they are coming from, in my belief they are mistaken and deluded and behaving improperly but hey people do that in many venues. I felt like my leaving was a threat to a carefully constructed fragile synthetic narrative for people close to me who chose to remain. Even though I never actually argued against nor condemned the religion. I suppose I should feel worse about the whole incident but what I really feel is a sort of pity. Like someone would feel for an alcoholic or drug addict desperately rationalizing their destructive behavior. I don't hate the church nor resent the behavior of family members. I understand, besides what they think has little bearing on my world at this point. Very happy I left early though. I imagine the process as an adult married with kids even is quite an emotional slap. I don't want to tell others what to do. If people are happy claiming to believe those things I'm ok with it. But I won't do any such thing even if it means social problems.
plorg 7y ago
I can't speak for the LDS church, but my brother left Christianity 5 or 6 years ago. I similarly left a few years later. Initially telling my parents was extremely uncomfortable, which stands to reason. They come from a tradition where parents are made responsible for their children's continued participation and adherence to the church, with eternal consequences for anyone who leaves. Every time we see my parents they say goodbye as if it's the last time they'll see us. They continue to speak as if we're still participating in the church, and they cry every time my brother, who lives 3 hours away, leaves to go home. A month ago my parents' church sent my brother a letter threatening him with damnation if he didn't return to Christianity and guilting him for not following in his parents religion. It then suggested he would be excommunicated (which has specific meaning in the denomination, it's not exactly shunning) if he didn't tell them where he was attending, or he could resign. It was sent as registered mail, and written in a way that was meant to be humiliating. My brother wrote back that he happily resigned. I expect at some point I might receive the same communication. In the Reformed church this is both old and new. The idea of excommunication had existed since before the church came over from Europe. But in recent times churches have found it a useful, quasi-legal way to enforce conformity and allegiance. If that environment is as totalizing a force in your life as the church intends to be, you will find it very difficult to leave. That threat will worry you. But once you've left it often just feels hurtful and vindictive. It doesn't have the reformative effect it is intended to effect.

jquery 7y ago

This was my experience as well (Utah native). I did not experience any shunning when I left, nor have others in my extended family. Any shunning I have seen was due to other factors than merely leaving, such as the reasons behind leaving (one of my cousins was shunned for drug dealing and running from the law, not for leaving). The Mormon church has a lot of experience with people leaving and appears to handle it pretty well in general. Of course leaving a religion is a hard and often agonizing decision and is painful personally, and people sometimes project these feelings onto others.

dkarl 7y ago

I have a close friend who experienced this. Just because the church has no official policy doesn't mean it doesn't happen. People showing up at your door for years when you've repeatedly asked for it to stop happening, including new addresses you move to after asking not to be contacted again (I've witnessed this personally, and it is deeply distressing and invasive), is harassment no matter what the intention behind it. And of course there is no official policy of "shunning," but individuals among your friends and family can be counseled that contact with you seems to be interfering with their faith and should be curtailed for their own spiritual good.

tomrod 7y ago
Very much this. Here is a comment where I detail the organizational trends that I believe justify my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22276276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22276276
curiousgeorgio 7y ago
This sounds like a situation where no one can win 100% of the time. Some people who are left alone after leaving the church complain that they're "alienated" by their neighbors, while those whose neighbors try to keep them involved are victims of "invasive harassment". And those who are content don't mention it, so no one hears about them. Any time I've heard of someone wishing not to be contacted, I've seen members of the church respect that desire. Of course that doesn't stop everyone (because not everyone may be aware of that desire). Instead of looking to criticize, please try to understand that people are usually just trying to be friendly and respectful, even if it doesn't always seem that way.
- dkarl 7y ago
  > Of course that doesn't stop everyone (because not everyone may be aware of that desire). This is only true to the extent that the church is extremely efficient at tracking down ex-members and sharing this information with local congregations and extremely inefficient at remembering that people have requested multiple times with multiple authorities never to be contacted again. People are visited by members of the church, acting as members of the church, introducing themselves as representatives of the church, visiting an address given to them by the church, and asking for a person they've never met by name, at an address the person has recently moved to after leaving the church. Again, I've witnessed this firsthand, in front of my own eyes. Think of the effort it takes to pull that off. It's not an innocent oopsie.
  - curiousgeorgio 7y ago
    "...visiting an address given to them by the church" If that person is really an "ex-member" (meaning they had their name removed from the church's records), then this simply could not have happened, at least not in the name of the church. I've seen firsthand what happens to a congregation's records when someone removes their name (no surprise - their name, address, etc are removed from the list, and there's no conspiracy of tracking people behind their backs as you seem to imply). That said, it's certainly possible that someone was operating on old data or otherwise mistaken (maybe the person visiting just asked another neighbor about the person who lived there, not knowing the history, but trying to be friendly?), but I can assure you that the church would not give someone a name and address of an ex-member who's had their name removed from the records. ADDED: To respond to a couple of replies here: I suspect the church's central records (in SLC) may retain some data about ex-members (I have no firsthand experience there one way or another) - at least where permissible by local privacy laws, but I've dealt with records at the congregation level for years (which is what missionaries or other members would use to contact someone), and I can definitively say that ex-members' info is removed from those records (not just marked as "inactive" or otherwise). Does that mean you will never be contacted by a member of the church again in your life? Absolutely not (for reasons explained above that have nothing to do with the church's records). You will have the same chance of being contacted by a well-meaning member or missionary as anyone else in your vicinity (which is more than many people realize).
godelski 7y ago
I can second this. I left over a decade ago. I've moved through four states, and probably a dozen addresses in that time. This is the first year where missionaries have not shown up at my door. I always had the same conversation with them: "Elders, I left the church for a reason and have no desire to come back. If you ever need water or to use the restroom, you are welcome to come by. I understand that what you are doing is hard, but you are not welcome to teach." I would never see the same elders twice. (I also detailed some of my leaving in hopes that it helps others)
- jacurtis 7y ago
  I can third this. I left about 7 years ago. I have moved from Wisconsin, to North Carolina, to Virginia, to Texas, and then to Washington. The Mormon church managed to find me each time. (I briefly moved to Pennsylvania for work for about 6 months between living in NC and VA, and that was the one time they never found me). I have always rejected all attempts to "re-activate" me. I have never provided notice of my leaving, and I have never as much as attended church once in any of these locations. Several of the moves I didn't even leave forwarding addresses or change of address at the post office. Heck about a year ago I missed some important documents from the IRS, because even they didn't know my new address. They were contacting a previous address, yet the Mormon church had already visited me (against my requests) a total of three times at that new address. The Mormon church in fact does encourage harassment of ex members, they just don't advertise it as harassment. I am assuming the top comment in this feed that claims they never promote harassment is probably from a current member. The church promotes and encourages members to visit ex-members "out of love" to "save them". It even goes as far as assigning certain members to "re-activate" specific lost members as a task or chore that they must report back progress on. So the members are harassing, but they do it under the guise of "love" and "salvation". The leaders of the church teach this twice a year in their worldwide broadcast conference (General Conference) where they tell stories (generally fictitious but claiming to be true-to-life) about how active members have gone to ex-members' homes and pushed and prodded for months and years to get members to re-activate. They will hail these persistent efforts to ignore the privacy requests of the ex-members and to push them even despite threats, because according to the story it eventually worked. They will laugh and say that "the spirit" will eventually get through to these ex-members if you just push them hard enough. This is all harassment. Yes, it is done naively from brainwashed members who think they are helping, but it is indeed harassment. Imagine breaking up with a significant other who then continues to say they know you were meant for each other. They keep showing up at your work and at your house trying to get you to fall back in love with them. They are convinced that if they insert themselves back into your life that you will feel that love again. But you want nothing to do with this person. That person feels like they are doing something out of love, but to you it is harassment. I've watched countless families destroyed over mormonism. It is toxic, but in the most crafty ways possible. Looking back, I did it all. I harrassed exmembers and gained pleasure from it. I thought I was truly helping them. We would laugh afterward at the threats we got. It was harrassement but I did it... i was brainwashed without realizing it. I am sick to my stomach for admitting it, but I was guilty of these acts for 30 years. My perspective has changed with many years out of the church. But trust me, it is part of the Mormon culture. I speak from experience. I am guilty of harrassing hundreds of people against their will as a Mormon. Further, it is worth noting that according to Mormon doctrine, someone who is an active member and leaves the church is "an apostate". Depending how far they went through the ladder of Mormonism (such as going through the temple or even working at the temple) this actually destines someone to a future life in "outer darkness". This is a place reserved for basically only apostates (people that left the church). The mormon church has even taught terrorists and hitler will be able to seek forgiveness in the next life and go to a lower form of heaven, but not as low as outer darkness. This literally puts people who leave the church as worse than mass murderers.

bathtub365 7y ago

You are both making broad statements about the church and using anecdotes to support those statements. Why should I believe either of you?

godelski 7y ago
I'll support tomrod. Because his experience, though not exact, reflects mine. You can see many others coming out of the woodworks too. People that were taught to hide their feelings because that's the only way they can amend their relationships with their families. Eventually enough anecdotal evidence is just data. I'll give support to tomrod.

smohare 7y ago

Ostracizing ex-members occurs in nearly every tight knit social group, especially ones predicated upon adherence to some ideology. It’s a basic tenant of human tribalism, and religions are perhaps the most tribal social groups we have ever invented.

KingHerodCosell 7y ago

I live in Utah. When I resigned from the Mormon church the entire ward shunned me and I was ostracized by my family. My home teacher told me that the bishop told the men in the priesthood not to associate with me.

gremlinsinc 7y ago

I'd have to disagree it doesn't necessarily enforce or push shunment but there is enough 'only way to heaven' talk that it makes family relationships with those still in perilous, and if you're underage and mentally out... gl trying to convince parents to let you resign without getting kicked out of the house. I left and told my wife I was going to but still it's been a bit of a stressor in our relationship, but I couldn't no longer be part of such a malicious organization that causes so many suicides inside the state of Utah and has such a horrific history of racism.

imOut 7y ago

My experience leaving was as follows. I don't feel bad nor bitter but it did have some negative repercussions. I knew at 13 I did not believe and didn't want to follow but was forced to continue attending and forbidden to speak about my lack of belief to siblings. Come 18 I was suggested to move out which I happily did. My father sort of eventually accepted but would try to slip in religious sermons when he could. My mother on the other hand freaked completely out. Parents took all pictures of me down in the house leaving pictures of siblings. They gave a piece of property my non-Mormon grandfather left me to my brother with my mother calling and explaining they were doing this because I had left the church and she had never forgiven her mother and brother from leaving. Pretty rough but I got over it. Luckily I never built much social identity around the church so that was less of an issue. Also I left young and at 18 who cares what your parents think because they are stupid anyway :). I don't think ostracism or social punishment is official policy but it is there in practice and likely very pronounced for some people. I still have a sister and brother who are very and irrationally hostile towards me but the other siblings are friendly enough and seem ok. I don't talk about church nor discourage their belief, I simply don't participate. Mom never did get over it and we were never close again until her death. Sometimes she would call me saying crazy things but I didn't hate or resent her for it, I understand where they are coming from, in my belief they are mistaken and deluded and behaving improperly but hey people do that in many venues. I felt like my leaving was a threat to a carefully constructed fragile synthetic narrative for people close to me who chose to remain. Even though I never actually argued against nor condemned the religion. I suppose I should feel worse about the whole incident but what I really feel is a sort of pity. Like someone would feel for an alcoholic or drug addict desperately rationalizing their destructive behavior. I don't hate the church nor resent the behavior of family members. I understand, besides what they think has little bearing on my world at this point. Very happy I left early though. I imagine the process as an adult married with kids even is quite an emotional slap. I don't want to tell others what to do. If people are happy claiming to believe those things I'm ok with it. But I won't do any such thing even if it means social problems.

plorg 7y ago

I can't speak for the LDS church, but my brother left Christianity 5 or 6 years ago. I similarly left a few years later. Initially telling my parents was extremely uncomfortable, which stands to reason. They come from a tradition where parents are made responsible for their children's continued participation and adherence to the church, with eternal consequences for anyone who leaves. Every time we see my parents they say goodbye as if it's the last time they'll see us. They continue to speak as if we're still participating in the church, and they cry every time my brother, who lives 3 hours away, leaves to go home. A month ago my parents' church sent my brother a letter threatening him with damnation if he didn't return to Christianity and guilting him for not following in his parents religion. It then suggested he would be excommunicated (which has specific meaning in the denomination, it's not exactly shunning) if he didn't tell them where he was attending, or he could resign. It was sent as registered mail, and written in a way that was meant to be humiliating. My brother wrote back that he happily resigned. I expect at some point I might receive the same communication. In the Reformed church this is both old and new. The idea of excommunication had existed since before the church came over from Europe. But in recent times churches have found it a useful, quasi-legal way to enforce conformity and allegiance. If that environment is as totalizing a force in your life as the church intends to be, you will find it very difficult to leave. That threat will worry you. But once you've left it often just feels hurtful and vindictive. It doesn't have the reformative effect it is intended to effect.