4 ms·

A prior discussion of Clay Christianson mentioned how he wouldn't play basketball on Sunday because it was the first small step that leads to larger steps (of s

by xrd 7y ago

A prior discussion of Clay Christianson mentioned how he wouldn't play basketball on Sunday because it was the first small step that leads to larger steps (of sinning). This is a massive amount of money. I'm struggling to understand if this money was gathered under the tax exempt status of churches in the US. And if this isn't a bigger sin than playing basketball on Sunday, if you believe in sinning. Remember, downvotes are just like playing basketball on Sunday...

themodelplumber 7y ago
Yeah, the church isn't known for handling the "big picture" questions very well, ironically. Internally it struggles with the checklist syndrome (sports on Sunday is always on there; extrapolations to qualitatively odd outcomes of saving money like what to do when you have a hundred billion dollars in an embarrassing economy where your membership is far less well off than your legal structure--now these items don't fit a checklist as well) and even leadership has been taught by example (from the persecution era) to become emotionally withdrawn and defensive in response to criticism like your own, rather than taking a more circumspect and outwardly honorable, investigative stance. It's really unfortunate.
rrss 7y ago
Clay Christensen was referring to one of the Ten Commandments - "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." I don't think many religions count churches not paying taxes as sins. Incidentally, Christensen almost certainly contributed a rather significant amount of money to this sum, and likely would have said it would be a sin not to have done so. "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings"
- tomrod 7y ago
  Note the irony that the scripture you quote was given to the priests, who were benefiting from the tithes and offerings of the nation [akin to the Mormon church giving luxurious homes to their General Authorities and plum book deals through Deseret Book], not the people themselves. Tithing got re-defined over the years. Consider: https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too...
  - starskublue 7y ago
    Do you really think former heart surgeons and company executives are making more money now on the general authority stipend than before?
    - tomrod 7y ago
      Let's collate our conversation regarding this to the other thread.
  - rrss 7y ago
    FWIW, I quoted that verse because that's the default scripture Mormons quote when you ask why they pay tithing, in my experience, and so I took the liberty of assuming that's probably what Christensen would say. But now you have me interested, so: > When you read the previous chapters and verses you will see that Malachi, as God's mouthpiece, is accusing the Church leaders of embezzling Given that this statement is based on the author's interpretation of 17th century english (KJV) translated from Hebrew, I'm a bit surprised by the confidence here (and the confidence with which you repeat it). I'm no biblical scholar, but I just read Malachi 2 and 3, and came away with the same impression as before, that the bit about tithes was addressed to all of the nation of israel. The author of that post seems to be primarily drawing the conclusion from their interpretation here: > "Will a man rob God? Well You have robbed me, even this whole nation!" In other words, the priest class had been robbing the whole nation Many other translations do not permit this interpretation, which is possible due to the ambiguity in the KJV of whether "even this whole nation" modifies "you" or "me". NIV: "You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me." NABRE: "You are indeed accursed, for you, the whole nation, rob me." NET: "You are bound for judgment because you are robbing me—this whole nation is guilty." NRSV: "You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me—the whole nation of you!" CSB: "You are suffering under a curse, yet you—the whole nation—are still robbing me." So maybe it is directed at the priests, maybe it isn't, but the understanding that it is directed at the priests isn't unique to the LDS church, as that post seems to suggest ("testament to our willingness for self-indoctrination that so many Latter-day Saints constantly...").
Osiris 7y ago
Why would having a large savings account be a sin?

by xrd 7y ago

themodelplumber 7y ago

Yeah, the church isn't known for handling the "big picture" questions very well, ironically. Internally it struggles with the checklist syndrome (sports on Sunday is always on there; extrapolations to qualitatively odd outcomes of saving money like what to do when you have a hundred billion dollars in an embarrassing economy where your membership is far less well off than your legal structure--now these items don't fit a checklist as well) and even leadership has been taught by example (from the persecution era) to become emotionally withdrawn and defensive in response to criticism like your own, rather than taking a more circumspect and outwardly honorable, investigative stance. It's really unfortunate.

rrss 7y ago

Clay Christensen was referring to one of the Ten Commandments - "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." I don't think many religions count churches not paying taxes as sins. Incidentally, Christensen almost certainly contributed a rather significant amount of money to this sum, and likely would have said it would be a sin not to have done so. "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings"

tomrod 7y ago
Note the irony that the scripture you quote was given to the priests, who were benefiting from the tithes and offerings of the nation [akin to the Mormon church giving luxurious homes to their General Authorities and plum book deals through Deseret Book], not the people themselves. Tithing got re-defined over the years. Consider: https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html https://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too...
- starskublue 7y ago
  Do you really think former heart surgeons and company executives are making more money now on the general authority stipend than before?
  - tomrod 7y ago
    Let's collate our conversation regarding this to the other thread.
- rrss 7y ago
  FWIW, I quoted that verse because that's the default scripture Mormons quote when you ask why they pay tithing, in my experience, and so I took the liberty of assuming that's probably what Christensen would say. But now you have me interested, so: > When you read the previous chapters and verses you will see that Malachi, as God's mouthpiece, is accusing the Church leaders of embezzling Given that this statement is based on the author's interpretation of 17th century english (KJV) translated from Hebrew, I'm a bit surprised by the confidence here (and the confidence with which you repeat it). I'm no biblical scholar, but I just read Malachi 2 and 3, and came away with the same impression as before, that the bit about tithes was addressed to all of the nation of israel. The author of that post seems to be primarily drawing the conclusion from their interpretation here: > "Will a man rob God? Well You have robbed me, even this whole nation!" In other words, the priest class had been robbing the whole nation Many other translations do not permit this interpretation, which is possible due to the ambiguity in the KJV of whether "even this whole nation" modifies "you" or "me". NIV: "You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me." NABRE: "You are indeed accursed, for you, the whole nation, rob me." NET: "You are bound for judgment because you are robbing me—this whole nation is guilty." NRSV: "You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me—the whole nation of you!" CSB: "You are suffering under a curse, yet you—the whole nation—are still robbing me." So maybe it is directed at the priests, maybe it isn't, but the understanding that it is directed at the priests isn't unique to the LDS church, as that post seems to suggest ("testament to our willingness for self-indoctrination that so many Latter-day Saints constantly...").

Osiris 7y ago

Why would having a large savings account be a sin?