7 ms·

So I’m officially a Mormon but am not a tithing member or active at all. I’ve asked some of my Mormon friends about this and their response is basically “well o

by wincy 7y ago

So I’m officially a Mormon but am not a tithing member or active at all. I’ve asked some of my Mormon friends about this and their response is basically “well of course they are, how else would they build Zion in the city of Independence, Missouri?”. They’ve said that’s where the latter days will be spent a long time ago, and they’re preparing to make that a reality “when the time comes”. They have a form of socialism called the law of consecration that Mormon society will live under (I believe they might have lived like that in Salt Lake while initially settling there). My seminary teacher, the sweetest woman you’ve ever met, got VERY upset and yelled at me when I said that it sounded like Communism. It still sounds a lot like Communism, though. It’s truly amazing that they have 15 years worth of tithing for their members saved up. I have concerns though, when my friends family lives in a house where their youngest kid got lead exposure, and they’re barely getting by, tithing their 10%, but the Mormon church is amassing such wealth yet my friend’s family of five is on food stamps. Something feels off there.

ravenstine 7y ago
> My seminary teacher, the sweetest woman you’ve ever met, got VERY upset and yelled at me when I said that it sounded like Communism. Yikes. It sounds like part of her knew you were right but she was in serious denial. By "latter days", do you mean after the LDS version of the end times? I thought that the "Latter Day" in Latter Day Saints referred to the time period of Joseph Smith. Mormons, from what I understand, encourage each other to prep for the end time and even have a semi-official guide on how to do so(it's free and pretty good, actually). It makes sense to me that they would also want to amass as much resources as possible to eventually build Zion. > I have concerns though, when my friends family lives in a house where their youngest kid got lead exposure, and they’re barely getting by, tithing their 10%, but the Mormon church is amassing such wealth yet my friend’s family of five is on food stamps. Something feels off there. Now I know why virtually all the men in my Mormon friend's family and social circle were either surgeons or lawyers. Better be able to get by while also tithing 10%!
codingdave 7y ago
> It still sounds a lot like Communism, though. That is because it is, 100%. If your teacher freaked out over it, she is having trouble reconciling it with the American cultural meme of "Communism is pure evil.", which stems from the Cold War, not religious doctrine. And yes, something is off if a tithing LDS family is living on food stamps. I have had family who lost jobs and had no money, and the LDS church gave them food and money to cover bills, until they could get back on their feet. Such situations tend to be handled at the local level, and there are definitely good and bad leaders in all organizations, including churches.
- darksaints 7y ago
  Mormons might be confused given Ezra Taft Benson's use of the church and his position as president and prophet to literally promote the John Birch Society. If there was any indication from god that communism was evil, mormons believe it would come from their prophet, and in this case it did, thousands of times over.
- starskublue 7y ago
  I think the key difference is the Church's system is voluntary and communism is not voluntary.
  - jquery 7y ago
    That difference means everything in the world.
  - darksaints 7y ago
    State communism might not be voluntary, but there are plenty of forms of communism that are voluntary: employee owned companies and cooperatives are literally communist. And I don't really consider it voluntary if I am to believe the consequences that they teach: the threat of being ripped from and permanently separated from your family for eternity is just as coercive of a punishment as the threat of being sent to a gulag.
    - lcall 7y ago
camhart 7y ago
I actually had the same thought back in high school. In my opinion there's an important difference though. Communism is forced upon you and removes freedoms. Law of consecration is voluntary--a choice you make. Most Bishops (local leaders) will tell the family to stop paying tithes for a time or to continue to pay but then they turn around and give them food and a check for rent/mortgage until you're back on your feet. They'll work with you and frequently require that you do certain things though--like look for a job--in order to continue receiving assistance.
- beatgammit 7y ago
  Communism is usually coercive, at least in the implementations we've seen, but there are plenty of theories that don't require coercion. That being said, the common usage of the term "communism" implies a dictatorship with heavy coercion.
Osiris 7y ago
> they’re barely getting by, tithing their 10%, but the Mormon church is amassing such wealth yet my friend’s family of five is on food stamps. Something feels off there. The church has welfare programs to help members and non-members that are need. I've personally recommended such food and rent assistance from the church at a point in my life. I've even had the church cover expenses for mental health counseling. I've also personally witnessed and helped to deliver food and provide service to those in need. Sometimes people in need receive in aid more than they tithe. There's also a huge social network of people helping each other out not directly related to church funds. There is also the Helping Hands program that provides labor and food and other support when there are natural disasters all over the world, including some big ones here in the US. This is not a situation that's all take and no give. Not only does the church provide a lot of welfare support, but actively encourages members to be Christ-like and serve everyone in need.
- wincy 7y ago
  Absolutely! As I said, I’m officially a member and live in a fairly affluent area. When I was unemployed and going through some tough times, even though I’ve never tithed they extended food aid to me. It was a very humbling experience, and if I didn’t have to believe all the stuff Joseph Smith made up I’d probably be an active Mormon. The ingroup exhortations of beliefs that, charitably, are very unlikely, is something I have a very hard time doing, even though quite honestly my life would be better if I was an active Mormon. I have so much respect for all the work Mormons do, though, and think I’m a better person for having grown up with friends in the church.
  - tomrod 7y ago
    You bring up something that bothers me too. The manipulation of local congregations in order to fund the central corporation is disappointing to say the least. Mormons are often the nicest people you'll find. It's a shame they are expected to express belief in racist, sexist, or other bigoted beliefs in order to be fully acceptable to their in-group. I point out in another comment that, charitably, congregations receive about 8% of donations back to fund local congregations, often several multiples less. Some congregations I saw send about $25k/week on average for ~200 congregants, and have an $8k budget (about twice that if you account for mainteance, about about $20k when taking charitable giving of food and bill payment into account). What was most disappointing was the training of how to get people with long term needs off of the congregation's dime. I think the Mormon church would do well to adopt a less centralized form of governance, treasury, and cash management.
innocentoldguy 7y ago
Some differences between the Law of Consecration and Communism are: 1. Nobody is forced to live the Law of Consecration. It is a personal choice and not one forced down your throat under threat of death. 2. Under the Law of Consecration, as practiced under Joseph Smith, families would define their needs rather than have their needs dictated. 3. Communism is about power and control. The Law of Consecration is about individually loving your neighbors.
- lcall 7y ago
  I wonder why this and those with similar comments were downvoted. I have spent some time studying both systems (at 2 universities) and observing over decades, and it looks accurate to me. The law of consecration, doctrinally, in all the source documents and major attempts to practice it, is voluntary, as is any true Christian behavior. I learned some things about communism, read a number of books about individuals' experiences, from various countries, for a little while majored in Russian history at a university in the midwestern/central USA, reading, watched many Soviet films, etc., and my mother has a degree in Asian Studies and knows Mandarin, etc etc of various family studies & travel, and communism seems consistently, across time and place, to be a combination of attractive words with a murderous horror of physical and mental abuse and control over individuals and any group that might not be in favor with those in power.
  - 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
    As often happens in discussions of political and economic systems, you're comparing an idealized concept of one side to the history of the other side; of course the history side looks worse. ETA: it occurs to me that there's a parallel here to the fundamental attribution error: my favorite system has flaws because its fundamental principles haven't been fully realized, while other systems have flaws because their fundamental principles are bad. Anyway, it's a pattern to watch out for.
    - wincy 7y ago
      I think (but might be wrong) that Mormons did live the law of consecration when they first settled in Utah. Found a link about the United Order in the early church. Sorta worked? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Order https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Order

by wincy 7y ago

ravenstine 7y ago

> My seminary teacher, the sweetest woman you’ve ever met, got VERY upset and yelled at me when I said that it sounded like Communism. Yikes. It sounds like part of her knew you were right but she was in serious denial. By "latter days", do you mean after the LDS version of the end times? I thought that the "Latter Day" in Latter Day Saints referred to the time period of Joseph Smith. Mormons, from what I understand, encourage each other to prep for the end time and even have a semi-official guide on how to do so(it's free and pretty good, actually). It makes sense to me that they would also want to amass as much resources as possible to eventually build Zion. > I have concerns though, when my friends family lives in a house where their youngest kid got lead exposure, and they’re barely getting by, tithing their 10%, but the Mormon church is amassing such wealth yet my friend’s family of five is on food stamps. Something feels off there. Now I know why virtually all the men in my Mormon friend's family and social circle were either surgeons or lawyers. Better be able to get by while also tithing 10%!

codingdave 7y ago

> It still sounds a lot like Communism, though. That is because it is, 100%. If your teacher freaked out over it, she is having trouble reconciling it with the American cultural meme of "Communism is pure evil.", which stems from the Cold War, not religious doctrine. And yes, something is off if a tithing LDS family is living on food stamps. I have had family who lost jobs and had no money, and the LDS church gave them food and money to cover bills, until they could get back on their feet. Such situations tend to be handled at the local level, and there are definitely good and bad leaders in all organizations, including churches.

darksaints 7y ago
Mormons might be confused given Ezra Taft Benson's use of the church and his position as president and prophet to literally promote the John Birch Society. If there was any indication from god that communism was evil, mormons believe it would come from their prophet, and in this case it did, thousands of times over.
starskublue 7y ago
I think the key difference is the Church's system is voluntary and communism is not voluntary.
- jquery 7y ago
  That difference means everything in the world.
- darksaints 7y ago
  State communism might not be voluntary, but there are plenty of forms of communism that are voluntary: employee owned companies and cooperatives are literally communist. And I don't really consider it voluntary if I am to believe the consequences that they teach: the threat of being ripped from and permanently separated from your family for eternity is just as coercive of a punishment as the threat of being sent to a gulag.
  - lcall 7y ago

camhart 7y ago

I actually had the same thought back in high school. In my opinion there's an important difference though. Communism is forced upon you and removes freedoms. Law of consecration is voluntary--a choice you make. Most Bishops (local leaders) will tell the family to stop paying tithes for a time or to continue to pay but then they turn around and give them food and a check for rent/mortgage until you're back on your feet. They'll work with you and frequently require that you do certain things though--like look for a job--in order to continue receiving assistance.

beatgammit 7y ago
Communism is usually coercive, at least in the implementations we've seen, but there are plenty of theories that don't require coercion. That being said, the common usage of the term "communism" implies a dictatorship with heavy coercion.

Osiris 7y ago

> they’re barely getting by, tithing their 10%, but the Mormon church is amassing such wealth yet my friend’s family of five is on food stamps. Something feels off there. The church has welfare programs to help members and non-members that are need. I've personally recommended such food and rent assistance from the church at a point in my life. I've even had the church cover expenses for mental health counseling. I've also personally witnessed and helped to deliver food and provide service to those in need. Sometimes people in need receive in aid more than they tithe. There's also a huge social network of people helping each other out not directly related to church funds. There is also the Helping Hands program that provides labor and food and other support when there are natural disasters all over the world, including some big ones here in the US. This is not a situation that's all take and no give. Not only does the church provide a lot of welfare support, but actively encourages members to be Christ-like and serve everyone in need.

wincy 7y ago
Absolutely! As I said, I’m officially a member and live in a fairly affluent area. When I was unemployed and going through some tough times, even though I’ve never tithed they extended food aid to me. It was a very humbling experience, and if I didn’t have to believe all the stuff Joseph Smith made up I’d probably be an active Mormon. The ingroup exhortations of beliefs that, charitably, are very unlikely, is something I have a very hard time doing, even though quite honestly my life would be better if I was an active Mormon. I have so much respect for all the work Mormons do, though, and think I’m a better person for having grown up with friends in the church.
- tomrod 7y ago
  You bring up something that bothers me too. The manipulation of local congregations in order to fund the central corporation is disappointing to say the least. Mormons are often the nicest people you'll find. It's a shame they are expected to express belief in racist, sexist, or other bigoted beliefs in order to be fully acceptable to their in-group. I point out in another comment that, charitably, congregations receive about 8% of donations back to fund local congregations, often several multiples less. Some congregations I saw send about $25k/week on average for ~200 congregants, and have an $8k budget (about twice that if you account for mainteance, about about $20k when taking charitable giving of food and bill payment into account). What was most disappointing was the training of how to get people with long term needs off of the congregation's dime. I think the Mormon church would do well to adopt a less centralized form of governance, treasury, and cash management.

innocentoldguy 7y ago

Some differences between the Law of Consecration and Communism are: 1. Nobody is forced to live the Law of Consecration. It is a personal choice and not one forced down your throat under threat of death. 2. Under the Law of Consecration, as practiced under Joseph Smith, families would define their needs rather than have their needs dictated. 3. Communism is about power and control. The Law of Consecration is about individually loving your neighbors.

lcall 7y ago
I wonder why this and those with similar comments were downvoted. I have spent some time studying both systems (at 2 universities) and observing over decades, and it looks accurate to me. The law of consecration, doctrinally, in all the source documents and major attempts to practice it, is voluntary, as is any true Christian behavior. I learned some things about communism, read a number of books about individuals' experiences, from various countries, for a little while majored in Russian history at a university in the midwestern/central USA, reading, watched many Soviet films, etc., and my mother has a degree in Asian Studies and knows Mandarin, etc etc of various family studies & travel, and communism seems consistently, across time and place, to be a combination of attractive words with a murderous horror of physical and mental abuse and control over individuals and any group that might not be in favor with those in power.
- 0xcde4c3db 7y ago
  As often happens in discussions of political and economic systems, you're comparing an idealized concept of one side to the history of the other side; of course the history side looks worse. ETA: it occurs to me that there's a parallel here to the fundamental attribution error: my favorite system has flaws because its fundamental principles haven't been fully realized, while other systems have flaws because their fundamental principles are bad. Anyway, it's a pattern to watch out for.
  - wincy 7y ago
    I think (but might be wrong) that Mormons did live the law of consecration when they first settled in Utah. Found a link about the United Order in the early church. Sorta worked? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Order https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Order