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To me, Microsoft's PR message has always amounted to "Windows users are either too busy, dumb, disorganized, impatient, or unfamiliar with their systems to know

To me, Microsoft's PR message has always amounted to "Windows users are either too busy, dumb, disorganized, impatient, or unfamiliar with their systems to know how to do things, so we try to think for them." It was amazing how much more productive and powerful I felt switching to Linux. Like, I could suddenly FIX problems without having to install some sketchy .exe or driver. Can't understand why people stick with Windows when they have other options.

unlinked_dll 7y ago
> Can't understand why people stick with Windows when they have other options. Gaming, support, decades of technical debt, and familiar user interfaces/workflows for non-technical users.
- craftinator 7y ago
  Gaming: getting a lot better on Linux, at an increasing rate. Steam has put a lot of work into making games available cross platform and for me, everything has "just worked" for the last two years or so. Support: I've never had Windows support be successful. The helpers, wizzards, and online support has misdiagnosed or been unable to fix every issue I've had. For Linux, there are massive, friendly, knowledgeable communities, thorough documentation, and if all else fails, Stack Overflow. Technical debt: I can't think of a Windows application I needed that hasn't had a similar FOSS application (if that was what you meant) User interfaces: other than the Windows Start Menu, vanilla Ubuntu seems pretty familiar and intuitive coming from Windows, from what I remember when I switched. Of course this is mostly subjective! But I think that Linux had so many years of clunkiness that it has a technical stigma to the average windows user. I've had friends and relatives switch recently after getting fed up by "Windows is now updating your PC at a very inconvenient time, for 3 hours", and overall have been happy with the switch.
  - unlinked_dll 7y ago
    Gaming "just works" on windows and has for a lot longer with much better performance. Valve has done great things but they aren't fixing my NVidia driver issues on Ubuntu. For support/tech debt I'm talking about enterprise. There is some out there but it's not so much for your daily users. FOSS exists for stuff like word, but excel (not your casual spreadsheets, I mean full on enterprise applications hacked together in excel), a business's ERP or CRM interface of choice (although this is mostly in the browser afaiui), the tons of legacy apps that need IE to function... yea. It's changing, but it's not great. And no one cares about mailing lists and online communities for support. In terms of UI, most graphical shells don't pass the grandma test. The default icons are horrible, the workflow is completely alien to people used to one way of doing things, and that's bad for casual users. Yes they can get over it, but they can also just use windows like they do at school and work. Basically it comes down to the fact the things average folks use windows for work great and they're familiar with it and need to use it at work or wherever. With linux they have no idea what distros to install, or how to do it on their machines that came with windows and don't have easy ways of moving their existing files to their new Linux box. There's just no incentives to use Linux for the average person. I say this as an ardent Linux user at home and work. I know how great it is, but I don't pretend that it makes sense for my dad who's been on Windows forever or my mom who's been on Mac forever.
    - craftinator 7y ago
      Agreed. I tend to play games with lower graphical needs, so I feel the effects of lacking Nvidia support less. Ah, yeah, enterprise level applications are another beast. I'm currently dealing with maintenance and upgrade of legacy VB6 motion control systems at work, and there's just no way any of it can be ported out of Windows (2000). I somewhat disagree about the Grandma test (at least for going from Windows to Linux; macOS has a very different feel). What do most causal users do with a PC? What I've observed is maybe 60% web browsing, 20% documentation, 20% media. Ubuntu comes with a drop in browser, drop in spreadsheet/text editor, and automatically launched media players. Discoverability is an issue, because none of these applications have exactly the same names, but Ubuntu's Window Key search function is smart enough to find these drop-ins with even vague search terms. With that ability, I'm arguing that the workflow for casual users is very similar, with a minor learning curve for new names and icons. Windows works great for casual users until: Windows update kicks in, Windows encounters a vague error, Windows unified search stops working (or fails to find files they know are there), or some application won't work for some unknown reason. Any technology you are familiar with will seem more familiar than any that you aren't; I get that argument. But at the same time, people are capable of learning new things, and they already learned Windows from scratch. It took effort for me to learn how to use Windows, same as other OS's. And with Linux laptops starting to become more of a thing, we're going to see fewer people who's first OS is either Mac or Windows (unfortunately it seems like it's becoming more and more Android or iOS)
kemotep 7y ago
I definitely roll my eyes when people say that on Windows everything "just works". I have to fix (or just deal with the fact that I cannot do anything about it) just as many things that break or go wrong with Windows as I do with Linux. Hacking around with the registry is just that. A hack job to roughly get Windows to behave until the next update breaks it. At least on Linux you have the whole system open to you and can roll back changes or apply patches with much more control.
- craftinator 7y ago
  Even after a decade as a Windows power user, touching the registry is absolutely a last resort option; the number of side effects, unintended consequences, and chances of registry corruption are crazy. There's no solid documentation! I'd rather (and have) make changes to the kernel on my Linux box, edit drivers, mess with the boot sequence. You can read about what each thing does, make backups, and like you said, just restore a previous state. So much more straightforward than messing with vague hex values...
- stinos 7y ago
  But for some people it just does work. Without the need for any hacks, just some tweaking of settings. So when I see people saying they roll there eyes when they they see those claims, I say: think a bit further, consider other factors. Like, it depends on what you do with it perhaps, on the hardware?
  - kemotep 7y ago
    I agree that for some people, they stick with Windows because their hardware and software does just work. Compatibility with the things you do is important. However we are in a thread about how Windows 10 search just up an broke and whose only permanent fix is to disable part of it in the registry. The search function barely works compared to alternatives too. People can absolutely stick with Windows but I was referring to people who argue that they cannot try alternatives because they don't "just work" and you have use a command line and do all this configuration stuff. I have less problems on Linux and most of them are of my own creation, trying to run software in wine or use hardware with non-free drivers. It helps to adapt to doing things the Linux way when using Linux instead of contiuing to operate in a Windows mindset.

unlinked_dll 7y ago

> Can't understand why people stick with Windows when they have other options. Gaming, support, decades of technical debt, and familiar user interfaces/workflows for non-technical users.

craftinator 7y ago
Gaming: getting a lot better on Linux, at an increasing rate. Steam has put a lot of work into making games available cross platform and for me, everything has "just worked" for the last two years or so. Support: I've never had Windows support be successful. The helpers, wizzards, and online support has misdiagnosed or been unable to fix every issue I've had. For Linux, there are massive, friendly, knowledgeable communities, thorough documentation, and if all else fails, Stack Overflow. Technical debt: I can't think of a Windows application I needed that hasn't had a similar FOSS application (if that was what you meant) User interfaces: other than the Windows Start Menu, vanilla Ubuntu seems pretty familiar and intuitive coming from Windows, from what I remember when I switched. Of course this is mostly subjective! But I think that Linux had so many years of clunkiness that it has a technical stigma to the average windows user. I've had friends and relatives switch recently after getting fed up by "Windows is now updating your PC at a very inconvenient time, for 3 hours", and overall have been happy with the switch.
- unlinked_dll 7y ago
  Gaming "just works" on windows and has for a lot longer with much better performance. Valve has done great things but they aren't fixing my NVidia driver issues on Ubuntu. For support/tech debt I'm talking about enterprise. There is some out there but it's not so much for your daily users. FOSS exists for stuff like word, but excel (not your casual spreadsheets, I mean full on enterprise applications hacked together in excel), a business's ERP or CRM interface of choice (although this is mostly in the browser afaiui), the tons of legacy apps that need IE to function... yea. It's changing, but it's not great. And no one cares about mailing lists and online communities for support. In terms of UI, most graphical shells don't pass the grandma test. The default icons are horrible, the workflow is completely alien to people used to one way of doing things, and that's bad for casual users. Yes they can get over it, but they can also just use windows like they do at school and work. Basically it comes down to the fact the things average folks use windows for work great and they're familiar with it and need to use it at work or wherever. With linux they have no idea what distros to install, or how to do it on their machines that came with windows and don't have easy ways of moving their existing files to their new Linux box. There's just no incentives to use Linux for the average person. I say this as an ardent Linux user at home and work. I know how great it is, but I don't pretend that it makes sense for my dad who's been on Windows forever or my mom who's been on Mac forever.
  - craftinator 7y ago
    Agreed. I tend to play games with lower graphical needs, so I feel the effects of lacking Nvidia support less. Ah, yeah, enterprise level applications are another beast. I'm currently dealing with maintenance and upgrade of legacy VB6 motion control systems at work, and there's just no way any of it can be ported out of Windows (2000). I somewhat disagree about the Grandma test (at least for going from Windows to Linux; macOS has a very different feel). What do most causal users do with a PC? What I've observed is maybe 60% web browsing, 20% documentation, 20% media. Ubuntu comes with a drop in browser, drop in spreadsheet/text editor, and automatically launched media players. Discoverability is an issue, because none of these applications have exactly the same names, but Ubuntu's Window Key search function is smart enough to find these drop-ins with even vague search terms. With that ability, I'm arguing that the workflow for casual users is very similar, with a minor learning curve for new names and icons. Windows works great for casual users until: Windows update kicks in, Windows encounters a vague error, Windows unified search stops working (or fails to find files they know are there), or some application won't work for some unknown reason. Any technology you are familiar with will seem more familiar than any that you aren't; I get that argument. But at the same time, people are capable of learning new things, and they already learned Windows from scratch. It took effort for me to learn how to use Windows, same as other OS's. And with Linux laptops starting to become more of a thing, we're going to see fewer people who's first OS is either Mac or Windows (unfortunately it seems like it's becoming more and more Android or iOS)

kemotep 7y ago

I definitely roll my eyes when people say that on Windows everything "just works". I have to fix (or just deal with the fact that I cannot do anything about it) just as many things that break or go wrong with Windows as I do with Linux. Hacking around with the registry is just that. A hack job to roughly get Windows to behave until the next update breaks it. At least on Linux you have the whole system open to you and can roll back changes or apply patches with much more control.

craftinator 7y ago
Even after a decade as a Windows power user, touching the registry is absolutely a last resort option; the number of side effects, unintended consequences, and chances of registry corruption are crazy. There's no solid documentation! I'd rather (and have) make changes to the kernel on my Linux box, edit drivers, mess with the boot sequence. You can read about what each thing does, make backups, and like you said, just restore a previous state. So much more straightforward than messing with vague hex values...
stinos 7y ago
But for some people it just does work. Without the need for any hacks, just some tweaking of settings. So when I see people saying they roll there eyes when they they see those claims, I say: think a bit further, consider other factors. Like, it depends on what you do with it perhaps, on the hardware?
- kemotep 7y ago
  I agree that for some people, they stick with Windows because their hardware and software does just work. Compatibility with the things you do is important. However we are in a thread about how Windows 10 search just up an broke and whose only permanent fix is to disable part of it in the registry. The search function barely works compared to alternatives too. People can absolutely stick with Windows but I was referring to people who argue that they cannot try alternatives because they don't "just work" and you have use a command line and do all this configuration stuff. I have less problems on Linux and most of them are of my own creation, trying to run software in wine or use hardware with non-free drivers. It helps to adapt to doing things the Linux way when using Linux instead of contiuing to operate in a Windows mindset.