6 ms·

> Kids, medical problems and bad luck can all contribute, but we generally have a very low degree of control over those situations. Bad luck sure, but kids are

> Kids, medical problems and bad luck can all contribute, but we generally have a very low degree of control over those situations. Bad luck sure, but kids are an entirely deterministic and preventable outcome. Most medical problems are arguably preventable as well. I agree regarding the link between possessions and employer leverage.

sokoloff 7y ago
So much so that it’s a trope to hire a salesperson with an expensive leased car, a flashy watch, and an overall expensive lifestyle.
kranner 7y ago
> kids are an entirely deterministic and preventable outcome. You may not want kids, but you can't choose not to want kids.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  There are many things I want but can't afford, and instead of putting myself in a vulnerable position to get them I choose to do without.
  - kranner 7y ago
    You’ve missed my point. I was referring to Schopenhauer‘s statement which is translated as “one can do what one wants, but can’t want what one wants.” https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/32731/what-does-schopenhauer-mean-by-a-man-can-do-what-he-wants-but-not-want-what-he https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/32731/what-do... Some people are so compelled to have kids that they don’t have a choice in the matter at all. Personally my wife and I chose not to have kids, but we know many more people who had to have kids than those who felt they had a choice in the matter.
retsibsi 7y ago
> Most medical problems are arguably preventable as well. That's a huge stretch. You could say that for most illnesses we have some idea how to reduce the risk, but there is still an overwhelming amount of luck involved. (And that's before we even get into the luck-based factors that make lower-risk behaviours harder or easier for different people.)
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  I'm under the impression that the vast majority of significant medical problems, in the US anyways, are associated with obvious risk factors such as obesity, sedentary lifestyle, and alcohol/tobacco consumption. Those are all trivially avoided.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    Uh huh. You come back in fifteen years and tell us how that's going for you, sport. Most of what I need doctors or other quasi-medical professionals to assist with is congenital or... wait for it... sports related. Turns out that 'get plenty of exercise' doesn't automatically fix everything. And it's harder to manage 'plenty' once you get older and everything fucking hurts. So many of my older friends have informed me that my definition of 'everything hurts' is adorable that I'm starting to worry that they're right when they tell me that I haven't seen anything yet.
    - kranner 7y ago
      There is just so much lack of general awareness about the things that can go wrong with your body once you're past the midpoint. Most young people are oblivious, just like I used to be. Now I'm 40, and this Sunday night I start seeing double when gazing above the horizon. After finding an opthalmologist who would see me immediately and getting MRIs and blood tests, it is diagnosed as idiopathic optical inflammatory syndrome and mostly treatable (although it tends to come back). I suppose I should be happy it's not a tumour in my brain. Ah youth, wasted on the young.
    - newnewpdro 7y ago
Broken_Hippo 7y ago
That's not how it works with children. Unless you have abortion easily available for poor people and sterilisation easily available for folks that don't want children... you might not have a choice. If you are male, you can't force stop an accidental pregnancy. Luckily, though, male sterilisation is quite effective. It is generally more difficult for females to get sterilized (especially if you aren't married and/or don't have children), it has more risk of failure, is more invasive, and is more expensive. All other birth control methods can fail - people get pregnant on the pill. Condoms break. And so on. Your employer might not even cover birth control. And these things don't even begin to cover things like rape, incest, and underage pregnancy where a guardian doesn't allow abortion. Children are not always preventable Other folks have already addressed the medical problems, so I'm gonna pass on it.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  Unless we're talking about rape which is not how most children are produced, sex is a choice with the predictable potential outcome of children.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Broken_Hippo 7y ago
    It is a ridiculous expectation to expect folks not to have sex, and as such, not included. This is a basic urge of people, and while some folks choose not to, most do not. If it were that simple, abstinence only education would include coping skills to avoid rather than shaming and would have a much better track record. Not having sex is simply not a viable option for most people - especially so within the confines of a committed romantic relationship. In fact, it is an easy way to void such a relationship in most cases.

sokoloff 7y ago

So much so that it’s a trope to hire a salesperson with an expensive leased car, a flashy watch, and an overall expensive lifestyle.

kranner 7y ago

> kids are an entirely deterministic and preventable outcome. You may not want kids, but you can't choose not to want kids.

newnewpdro 7y ago
There are many things I want but can't afford, and instead of putting myself in a vulnerable position to get them I choose to do without.
- kranner 7y ago
  You’ve missed my point. I was referring to Schopenhauer‘s statement which is translated as “one can do what one wants, but can’t want what one wants.” https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/32731/what-does-schopenhauer-mean-by-a-man-can-do-what-he-wants-but-not-want-what-he https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/32731/what-do... Some people are so compelled to have kids that they don’t have a choice in the matter at all. Personally my wife and I chose not to have kids, but we know many more people who had to have kids than those who felt they had a choice in the matter.

retsibsi 7y ago

> Most medical problems are arguably preventable as well. That's a huge stretch. You could say that for most illnesses we have some idea how to reduce the risk, but there is still an overwhelming amount of luck involved. (And that's before we even get into the luck-based factors that make lower-risk behaviours harder or easier for different people.)

newnewpdro 7y ago
I'm under the impression that the vast majority of significant medical problems, in the US anyways, are associated with obvious risk factors such as obesity, sedentary lifestyle, and alcohol/tobacco consumption. Those are all trivially avoided.
- hinkley 7y ago
  Uh huh. You come back in fifteen years and tell us how that's going for you, sport. Most of what I need doctors or other quasi-medical professionals to assist with is congenital or... wait for it... sports related. Turns out that 'get plenty of exercise' doesn't automatically fix everything. And it's harder to manage 'plenty' once you get older and everything fucking hurts. So many of my older friends have informed me that my definition of 'everything hurts' is adorable that I'm starting to worry that they're right when they tell me that I haven't seen anything yet.
  - kranner 7y ago
    There is just so much lack of general awareness about the things that can go wrong with your body once you're past the midpoint. Most young people are oblivious, just like I used to be. Now I'm 40, and this Sunday night I start seeing double when gazing above the horizon. After finding an opthalmologist who would see me immediately and getting MRIs and blood tests, it is diagnosed as idiopathic optical inflammatory syndrome and mostly treatable (although it tends to come back). I suppose I should be happy it's not a tumour in my brain. Ah youth, wasted on the young.
  - newnewpdro 7y ago

Broken_Hippo 7y ago

That's not how it works with children. Unless you have abortion easily available for poor people and sterilisation easily available for folks that don't want children... you might not have a choice. If you are male, you can't force stop an accidental pregnancy. Luckily, though, male sterilisation is quite effective. It is generally more difficult for females to get sterilized (especially if you aren't married and/or don't have children), it has more risk of failure, is more invasive, and is more expensive. All other birth control methods can fail - people get pregnant on the pill. Condoms break. And so on. Your employer might not even cover birth control. And these things don't even begin to cover things like rape, incest, and underage pregnancy where a guardian doesn't allow abortion. Children are not always preventable Other folks have already addressed the medical problems, so I'm gonna pass on it.

newnewpdro 7y ago
Unless we're talking about rape which is not how most children are produced, sex is a choice with the predictable potential outcome of children.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- Broken_Hippo 7y ago
  It is a ridiculous expectation to expect folks not to have sex, and as such, not included. This is a basic urge of people, and while some folks choose not to, most do not. If it were that simple, abstinence only education would include coping skills to avoid rather than shaming and would have a much better track record. Not having sex is simply not a viable option for most people - especially so within the confines of a committed romantic relationship. In fact, it is an easy way to void such a relationship in most cases.