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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie There's no discernible difference between p-zombies and '

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_zombie There's no discernible difference between p-zombies and 'real' conscious beings. There's a good chance that we're all p-zombies and a distinction between zombie and real doesn't exist. > If you pull back enough layers on how or why humans think or do the things they do - we arrive at things we can't explain. Sounds a lot like a magical argument. There's no evidence that anything about the way human minds work is fundamentally unexplainable.

Rury 7y ago
>There's no evidence that anything about the way human minds work is fundamentally unexplainable. Agreed. What I'm implying here is if we come circle to fully explaining how the brain works, then in theory we could predict how someone will function if given all input conditions (whether this is practical is another matter). If this is true, then wouldn't we just be biomechanical robots operating on stimuli? Would we be any more intelligent than say a rock, that similarly just reacts to physical stimuli? Or are we just a more complex rock?
- l_t 7y ago
  > If this is true, then wouldn't we just be biomechanical robots operating on stimuli Yes, that's right. Which is one of the big problems with this line of argument for many people -- how do you reconcile "biomechanical robot" with the concepts of "free will" and "moral decision-making"? I'm personally agnostic on the issue (I don't believe science is able to answer this question yet -- or possibly ever.) I do think it's interesting that you say "just a biomechanical robot." The "just" implies that being a robot -- a fancy rock -- in some way isn't enough. But in my mind, there's absolutely no (objective) reason to think of a human as any better or more important than a robot, or a rock.
  - Rury 7y ago
    Yeah, sorry I don't mean to imply that. I'm just trying to challenge people's assumptions of what makes something intelligent. To me, it's not precisely clear as to what makes something intelligent, and is why I think we've had trouble coming up with a satisfactory test for determining when a computer is intelligent.
    - l_t 7y ago
      Gotcha -- that makes total sense. Thanks! (P.S. Sorry for putting words in your mouth -- I don't want to imply you said anything you didn't. My bad there.)
- 0xBABAD00C 7y ago
  > wouldn't we just be biomechanical robots operating on stimuli? > are we just a more complex rock? of course we are. moreover, it's pretty straightforward to trace our evolution back to rocks or rock-like formations.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    It's pretty straightforward to trace our evolution back to single cells, but to rocks? And I don't think there is a clear idea of where viruses and stuff come in. I vaguely remember an article suggesting there might be a previously unknown mechanism used by the brain to handle memories that resembles (literal) viral machinery. Some think there might have been a biosphere before DNA, that used RNA. But presumably early life underwent transformations that wiped out the very first, whatever it was.
    - 0xBABAD00C 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis (see the "Origin of biological metabolism" section - lots of good new research coming out recently, including simulations of the very early processes predating life as such)
Seenso 7y ago
> There's no discernible difference between p-zombies and 'real' conscious beings. There's a good chance that we're all p-zombies and a distinction between zombie and real doesn't exist. I think you're getting it wrong. There's no externally discernible difference between a normal person and a p-zombie, because the difference is in how they experience. I know I'm conscious, because I subjectively experience it, but I can't be sure about anyone else because they could be a p-zombie that has everything except that subjective experience.
- Zigurd 7y ago
  You think this thing you call "you" is conscious because your subconscious has a very good marketing department.
  - robbrown451 7y ago
    That's clever, can I use that? :)
JackFr 7y ago
You’re the one with magical beliefs. Why should the brain or anything for that matter be explainable? Cause your brain has tricked you into believing it’s a universal understanding machine?
badrabbit 7y ago
Consciousness is not how a mind works. It is a state property of the machine. Much like how you use to define a program using a finite state machine. It has nothing to do with reality or perception
perl4ever 7y ago
"There's no evidence that anything about the way human minds work is fundamentally unexplainable." Can you have evidence that something is "fundamentally unexplainable"? Other than a lack of explanation? If your statement has consequences, then there must be an imaginable counterfactual where it does not hold. I'm struggling to think of that.
goatlover 7y ago
A p-zombie doesn’t experience pain, color, dreams, etc. If you do have those experiences, then you’re not a p-zombie. You might counter that your brain is tricking you into thinking you have those experiences, when you don’t. It’s an illusion. Bit ask yourself this. What would it even mean for the experience of pain or color to be an illusion? An illusion is itself a conscious experience!

Rury 7y ago

>There's no evidence that anything about the way human minds work is fundamentally unexplainable. Agreed. What I'm implying here is if we come circle to fully explaining how the brain works, then in theory we could predict how someone will function if given all input conditions (whether this is practical is another matter). If this is true, then wouldn't we just be biomechanical robots operating on stimuli? Would we be any more intelligent than say a rock, that similarly just reacts to physical stimuli? Or are we just a more complex rock?

l_t 7y ago
> If this is true, then wouldn't we just be biomechanical robots operating on stimuli Yes, that's right. Which is one of the big problems with this line of argument for many people -- how do you reconcile "biomechanical robot" with the concepts of "free will" and "moral decision-making"? I'm personally agnostic on the issue (I don't believe science is able to answer this question yet -- or possibly ever.) I do think it's interesting that you say "just a biomechanical robot." The "just" implies that being a robot -- a fancy rock -- in some way isn't enough. But in my mind, there's absolutely no (objective) reason to think of a human as any better or more important than a robot, or a rock.
- Rury 7y ago
  Yeah, sorry I don't mean to imply that. I'm just trying to challenge people's assumptions of what makes something intelligent. To me, it's not precisely clear as to what makes something intelligent, and is why I think we've had trouble coming up with a satisfactory test for determining when a computer is intelligent.
  - l_t 7y ago
    Gotcha -- that makes total sense. Thanks! (P.S. Sorry for putting words in your mouth -- I don't want to imply you said anything you didn't. My bad there.)
0xBABAD00C 7y ago
> wouldn't we just be biomechanical robots operating on stimuli? > are we just a more complex rock? of course we are. moreover, it's pretty straightforward to trace our evolution back to rocks or rock-like formations.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  It's pretty straightforward to trace our evolution back to single cells, but to rocks? And I don't think there is a clear idea of where viruses and stuff come in. I vaguely remember an article suggesting there might be a previously unknown mechanism used by the brain to handle memories that resembles (literal) viral machinery. Some think there might have been a biosphere before DNA, that used RNA. But presumably early life underwent transformations that wiped out the very first, whatever it was.
  - 0xBABAD00C 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis (see the "Origin of biological metabolism" section - lots of good new research coming out recently, including simulations of the very early processes predating life as such)

Seenso 7y ago

> There's no discernible difference between p-zombies and 'real' conscious beings. There's a good chance that we're all p-zombies and a distinction between zombie and real doesn't exist. I think you're getting it wrong. There's no externally discernible difference between a normal person and a p-zombie, because the difference is in how they experience. I know I'm conscious, because I subjectively experience it, but I can't be sure about anyone else because they could be a p-zombie that has everything except that subjective experience.

Zigurd 7y ago
You think this thing you call "you" is conscious because your subconscious has a very good marketing department.
- robbrown451 7y ago
  That's clever, can I use that? :)

JackFr 7y ago

You’re the one with magical beliefs. Why should the brain or anything for that matter be explainable? Cause your brain has tricked you into believing it’s a universal understanding machine?

badrabbit 7y ago

Consciousness is not how a mind works. It is a state property of the machine. Much like how you use to define a program using a finite state machine. It has nothing to do with reality or perception

perl4ever 7y ago

"There's no evidence that anything about the way human minds work is fundamentally unexplainable." Can you have evidence that something is "fundamentally unexplainable"? Other than a lack of explanation? If your statement has consequences, then there must be an imaginable counterfactual where it does not hold. I'm struggling to think of that.

goatlover 7y ago

A p-zombie doesn’t experience pain, color, dreams, etc. If you do have those experiences, then you’re not a p-zombie. You might counter that your brain is tricking you into thinking you have those experiences, when you don’t. It’s an illusion. Bit ask yourself this. What would it even mean for the experience of pain or color to be an illusion? An illusion is itself a conscious experience!