11 ms·

> It lacks 802.11ac. Why in the world would it lack support for one of the most ubiquitous, not to mention fastest, wireless standards? I mean, it’s been out s

> It lacks 802.11ac. Why in the world would it lack support for one of the most ubiquitous, not to mention fastest, wireless standards? I mean, it’s been out since 2013.

markjdb 7y ago
Because there are not many people with the ability to add 802.11ac support to drivers, the resources to do so (datasheets, test hardware), and the time required. The 802.11 stack does support at least some 11ac features.
loeg 7y ago
Time, resources, interest; lack of open datasheets and corporate sponsorship from the hardware vendors making the parts. These things don't just happen magically; people make them happen. Linux finally has enough market power that vendors willingly write drivers for it, but I remember a very similar situation with Linux in the 2000s when Microsoft was the only player around with that kind of market clout.
- bjornjajajaja 7y ago
  Also, who really NEEDS 802.11 ac?? If you’re that picky wtf not plug into Ethernet??
  - outside1234 7y ago
    Planes
  - GordonS 7y ago
    Sarcasm, surely?
  - Rapzid 7y ago
    Heh, I actually spent nearly a whole day's time trying to figure out why I couldn't get more than ~300Mbps to my desktop from my Nighthawk AP via my Nighthawk USB wifi adapter. On Windows 10 Pro. There is now an ethernet cable running across my living room.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - vinceguidry 7y ago
    It's not just about speed. I bought a Purism Librem 13 that only came with an n wifi chip. After no end of problems connecting to wifi networks I swapped the chip for an ac. The n would just fail to connect to many networks I needed it to connect to. With an ac I now have no wifi problems. You don't think you need ac until you try to get by without.
  - oarsinsync 7y ago
    My internet point comes into my apartment at one end. I'd like to have decent speeds on my laptop that's at the other end. I rent the apartment, so any cabling I do needs to either be loose cabling across the floor (dangerous), or neatly done but also capable of being totally removed without doing any damage (expensive in time, if not money). Comparatively, buying a 802.1AC capable router is cheap (in time, if not money) and portable when I invariably end up moving again. I mean, I could also get Ethernet over Powerline, but that subject to even more jitter and variable throughput, costs a comparable amount, and then means my laptop loses it's mobility. And then there's my wireless-only-by-default devices like my phone and tablet and other laptop...
travbrack 7y ago
Because running freebsd on a laptop is an edge case. Most people run it on servers. It’s not trying to be everything to everyone like Linux is.
- cosmodisk 7y ago
  Was about to write the same. I suppose WiFi support to an average FreeBSD user is as useful as floppy disk reader drivers to Win 10 users.
- Koshkin 7y ago
  Linux it is, then.
  - dmix 7y ago
    Linux desktop is great in 2020, especially if you buy the right hardware with solid support, the experience is totally smooth and super-high performance with stuff like ArchLinux. Boots up immediatley, no annoying MacOS updates or having to install XCode while having multiple versions of core unix packages, because it pre-installs a bunch of out-of-date ones you replace immediately with brew. This causes problems, especially for newbies new to working with terminals, as it falls back onto the old ones when stuff isn't linked or set up properly. Nothing beats having a clean minimal /usr directory with only the stuff you decide to install and extremely fast startups with good battery use. I get Macbooks for work but use a Linux one on the side (which I used for 5+ yrs when I was working freelance) and I plan to convince my boss to let me get a thinkpad or dell for the next laptop update.
    - lsiebert 7y ago
      So I used to be a Linux mint/ubuntu/fedora user (I distro hopped a bit), but I really like how homebrew on macs is per user account rather than system wide, and I can just delete the folder to reset it for the most part (minus running programs, some GUI casks, and shortcuts). AFAIK, apt-get and most if not all linux package managers only work system wide, and I can't install something just for a specific user. Maybe arch is different? Homebrew definitely has issues though, agreed. Incidentally I ran all of those distros on a T430... which still works fine when I boot it up. Thinkpads are great linux machines, and just great easily repairable machines in general.
Aengeuad 7y ago
Speaking from memory as it's a little difficult to search for but there's no fully FOSS ac driver available for Linux which might be why the BSDs have none, Linux has open source ac drivers of course but they still require proprietary firmware blobs and the performance is terrible compared to the proprietary drivers (think 350Mb/s with OpenWrt compared to 800Mb/s on stock router firmware). Atheros released fully open blob free 802.11n drivers in 2008 with their ath9k driver, although no other manufacturer followed suit. I've heard that there may be licencing or patent restrictions preventing blob free ac drivers from being released but again it's a little difficult to try and verify this.
- loeg 7y ago
  This isn't the reason FreeBSD doesn't have 802.11ac. We're not picky about firmware blobs.
- labawi 7y ago
  FOSS driver and open firmware are separate issues. Binary drivers executing on the CPU are a no-go for me. OTOH, I consider device firmware blobs user(OS)-loaded on power-on to be strictly safer than a stored blob, though less convenient in some ways. Devices these days have firmware, usually on flash-able storage, as they don't make it right the first time. Would you rather have a wifi chipset, that can be permanently infected after an exploit / evil-maid / malware on PC, or one that can equally be exploited, but is as clean as ever after a power cycle, because the OS needs to load firmware every time?
- szemet 7y ago
  Doesn't mt76* count? It is in since 4.19. http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1808.0/04276.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1808.0/04276.html I know, because I've immediately bought an usb wifi dongle for my desktop with this chipset. (and it is working perfectly OOB with every linux kernel for me since then).

> It lacks 802.11ac. Why in the world would it lack support for one of the most ubiquitous, not to mention fastest, wireless standards? I mean, it’s been out since 2013.

markjdb 7y ago

Because there are not many people with the ability to add 802.11ac support to drivers, the resources to do so (datasheets, test hardware), and the time required. The 802.11 stack does support at least some 11ac features.

loeg 7y ago

Time, resources, interest; lack of open datasheets and corporate sponsorship from the hardware vendors making the parts. These things don't just happen magically; people make them happen. Linux finally has enough market power that vendors willingly write drivers for it, but I remember a very similar situation with Linux in the 2000s when Microsoft was the only player around with that kind of market clout.

bjornjajajaja 7y ago
Also, who really NEEDS 802.11 ac?? If you’re that picky wtf not plug into Ethernet??
- outside1234 7y ago
  Planes
- GordonS 7y ago
  Sarcasm, surely?
- Rapzid 7y ago
  Heh, I actually spent nearly a whole day's time trying to figure out why I couldn't get more than ~300Mbps to my desktop from my Nighthawk AP via my Nighthawk USB wifi adapter. On Windows 10 Pro. There is now an ethernet cable running across my living room.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- vinceguidry 7y ago
  It's not just about speed. I bought a Purism Librem 13 that only came with an n wifi chip. After no end of problems connecting to wifi networks I swapped the chip for an ac. The n would just fail to connect to many networks I needed it to connect to. With an ac I now have no wifi problems. You don't think you need ac until you try to get by without.
- oarsinsync 7y ago
  My internet point comes into my apartment at one end. I'd like to have decent speeds on my laptop that's at the other end. I rent the apartment, so any cabling I do needs to either be loose cabling across the floor (dangerous), or neatly done but also capable of being totally removed without doing any damage (expensive in time, if not money). Comparatively, buying a 802.1AC capable router is cheap (in time, if not money) and portable when I invariably end up moving again. I mean, I could also get Ethernet over Powerline, but that subject to even more jitter and variable throughput, costs a comparable amount, and then means my laptop loses it's mobility. And then there's my wireless-only-by-default devices like my phone and tablet and other laptop...

travbrack 7y ago

Because running freebsd on a laptop is an edge case. Most people run it on servers. It’s not trying to be everything to everyone like Linux is.

cosmodisk 7y ago
Was about to write the same. I suppose WiFi support to an average FreeBSD user is as useful as floppy disk reader drivers to Win 10 users.
Koshkin 7y ago
Linux it is, then.
- dmix 7y ago
  Linux desktop is great in 2020, especially if you buy the right hardware with solid support, the experience is totally smooth and super-high performance with stuff like ArchLinux. Boots up immediatley, no annoying MacOS updates or having to install XCode while having multiple versions of core unix packages, because it pre-installs a bunch of out-of-date ones you replace immediately with brew. This causes problems, especially for newbies new to working with terminals, as it falls back onto the old ones when stuff isn't linked or set up properly. Nothing beats having a clean minimal /usr directory with only the stuff you decide to install and extremely fast startups with good battery use. I get Macbooks for work but use a Linux one on the side (which I used for 5+ yrs when I was working freelance) and I plan to convince my boss to let me get a thinkpad or dell for the next laptop update.
  - lsiebert 7y ago
    So I used to be a Linux mint/ubuntu/fedora user (I distro hopped a bit), but I really like how homebrew on macs is per user account rather than system wide, and I can just delete the folder to reset it for the most part (minus running programs, some GUI casks, and shortcuts). AFAIK, apt-get and most if not all linux package managers only work system wide, and I can't install something just for a specific user. Maybe arch is different? Homebrew definitely has issues though, agreed. Incidentally I ran all of those distros on a T430... which still works fine when I boot it up. Thinkpads are great linux machines, and just great easily repairable machines in general.

Aengeuad 7y ago

Speaking from memory as it's a little difficult to search for but there's no fully FOSS ac driver available for Linux which might be why the BSDs have none, Linux has open source ac drivers of course but they still require proprietary firmware blobs and the performance is terrible compared to the proprietary drivers (think 350Mb/s with OpenWrt compared to 800Mb/s on stock router firmware). Atheros released fully open blob free 802.11n drivers in 2008 with their ath9k driver, although no other manufacturer followed suit. I've heard that there may be licencing or patent restrictions preventing blob free ac drivers from being released but again it's a little difficult to try and verify this.

loeg 7y ago
This isn't the reason FreeBSD doesn't have 802.11ac. We're not picky about firmware blobs.
labawi 7y ago
FOSS driver and open firmware are separate issues. Binary drivers executing on the CPU are a no-go for me. OTOH, I consider device firmware blobs user(OS)-loaded on power-on to be strictly safer than a stored blob, though less convenient in some ways. Devices these days have firmware, usually on flash-able storage, as they don't make it right the first time. Would you rather have a wifi chipset, that can be permanently infected after an exploit / evil-maid / malware on PC, or one that can equally be exploited, but is as clean as ever after a power cycle, because the OS needs to load firmware every time?
szemet 7y ago
Doesn't mt76* count? It is in since 4.19. http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1808.0/04276.html http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1808.0/04276.html I know, because I've immediately bought an usb wifi dongle for my desktop with this chipset. (and it is working perfectly OOB with every linux kernel for me since then).