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Autopilot was active, but according to the article update, not purchased by the dealer. The deal between the dealer and the final owner of the car didn't play a

by _ph_ 7y ago

Autopilot was active, but according to the article update, not purchased by the dealer. The deal between the dealer and the final owner of the car didn't play a role in this.

leereeves 7y ago
The dealer was the owner when Tesla disabled AP, not Tesla. That's a third-party dealer who bought the car at auction, not a Tesla-dealer (which don't exist). The dealer is a private party. It shouldn't matter whether the dealer or Alec was the owner, the point is, Tesla wasn't.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  The question is, whether that dealer bought the car with the autopilot included. If yes, he can sue Tesla, if not, then it was ok for Tesla to disable it. And the updates point to the fact, that the car was sold without autopilot as a feature.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    > And the updates point to the fact, that the car was sold without autopilot as a feature. What updates point to that? The sticker says the car had AP, the disclosure doesn't say otherwise, and everyone seems to agree the car did in fact have AP enabled when Tesla sold it on Nov 15. What evidence says Tesla sold the car without AP? It doesn't matter that Tesla's records say the car shouldn't have had AP, it did have it. It also doesn't matter whether Tesla wronged Alec or the dealer here. In either case, if the story is accurate, Tesla sabotaged a car they'd already sold because they accidentally left a feature enabled that they didn't want to.
    - _ph_ 7y ago
      The sticker refers to the first sale of the car, not to the sale of the then used car by Tesla to the dealer.
      - leereeves 7y ago
        Even if the sticker wasn't shown at auction, Tesla isn't off the hook. Cars at auction are typically sold as-is, and when they are sold as-is, the seller can't say "Oops, we forgot to disable that feature" and then disable it a few days later.
- zaroth 7y ago
  Who owned the car before the dealer bought it? Tesla. Did Tesla sell a car with FSD to the dealer? No, Tesla sold the dealer a car without FSD, but the feature was incorrectly enabled in the car that was delivered. This tends to happen because features will only come off after the next software update is applied. By the way, there's a similar issue with used cars that originally came with "Free Unlimited SuperCharging". This is another case where if Tesla buys the used car, or it's returned to them, they will resell it used without "Free Unlimited Supercharging". The problem is when third-party dealers purchase off-lease Teslas which originally had "Free Unlimited SuperCharging" even though Tesla will always remove that feature when the lease is over, the used car dealer could lie to the new buyer that they are getting FUSC with the car, when in fact they will not. For example: https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/free-unlimited-supercharging-removed-without-notice https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/free-unlimited-superch...
  - dlgeek 7y ago
    Who sold the car with a federal disclosure window sticker that represented it had full self-driving capability installed? Tesla. Who failed to include any mention of removing that equipment that was included in the legally required lemon disclosure statement? Tesla. Who allowed the dealer to inspect the car and test drive it in a state where the equipment and features that were listed as included equipment were present and working? Tesla. If Tesla wants to remove features when they resell a car, that's fine, but they have to disclose it, and they can't misrepresent those features as included in the material and documentation provided. That would be fraud.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    > Tesla sold the dealer a car without FSD Where do you get that idea? If that picture of an invoice is to be believed, even Tesla agrees the car did have FSD when it was sold on Nov 15. And nothing seems to say otherwise. You may expect, for whatever reason, that a used Tesla doesn't include FSD even if the sticker says it does and the feature is enabled on a test drive, but that's not a reasonable expectation. In fact it's quite a surprise, so Tesla needs to make it very clear that that is the case, and there's no evidence here that they have done so.

by _ph_ 7y ago

Autopilot was active, but according to the article update, not purchased by the dealer. The deal between the dealer and the final owner of the car didn't play a role in this.

leereeves 7y ago

The dealer was the owner when Tesla disabled AP, not Tesla. That's a third-party dealer who bought the car at auction, not a Tesla-dealer (which don't exist). The dealer is a private party. It shouldn't matter whether the dealer or Alec was the owner, the point is, Tesla wasn't.

_ph_ 7y ago
The question is, whether that dealer bought the car with the autopilot included. If yes, he can sue Tesla, if not, then it was ok for Tesla to disable it. And the updates point to the fact, that the car was sold without autopilot as a feature.
- leereeves 7y ago
  > And the updates point to the fact, that the car was sold without autopilot as a feature. What updates point to that? The sticker says the car had AP, the disclosure doesn't say otherwise, and everyone seems to agree the car did in fact have AP enabled when Tesla sold it on Nov 15. What evidence says Tesla sold the car without AP? It doesn't matter that Tesla's records say the car shouldn't have had AP, it did have it. It also doesn't matter whether Tesla wronged Alec or the dealer here. In either case, if the story is accurate, Tesla sabotaged a car they'd already sold because they accidentally left a feature enabled that they didn't want to.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    The sticker refers to the first sale of the car, not to the sale of the then used car by Tesla to the dealer.
    - leereeves 7y ago
      Even if the sticker wasn't shown at auction, Tesla isn't off the hook. Cars at auction are typically sold as-is, and when they are sold as-is, the seller can't say "Oops, we forgot to disable that feature" and then disable it a few days later.
zaroth 7y ago
Who owned the car before the dealer bought it? Tesla. Did Tesla sell a car with FSD to the dealer? No, Tesla sold the dealer a car without FSD, but the feature was incorrectly enabled in the car that was delivered. This tends to happen because features will only come off after the next software update is applied. By the way, there's a similar issue with used cars that originally came with "Free Unlimited SuperCharging". This is another case where if Tesla buys the used car, or it's returned to them, they will resell it used without "Free Unlimited Supercharging". The problem is when third-party dealers purchase off-lease Teslas which originally had "Free Unlimited SuperCharging" even though Tesla will always remove that feature when the lease is over, the used car dealer could lie to the new buyer that they are getting FUSC with the car, when in fact they will not. For example: https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/free-unlimited-supercharging-removed-without-notice https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/free-unlimited-superch...
- dlgeek 7y ago
  Who sold the car with a federal disclosure window sticker that represented it had full self-driving capability installed? Tesla. Who failed to include any mention of removing that equipment that was included in the legally required lemon disclosure statement? Tesla. Who allowed the dealer to inspect the car and test drive it in a state where the equipment and features that were listed as included equipment were present and working? Tesla. If Tesla wants to remove features when they resell a car, that's fine, but they have to disclose it, and they can't misrepresent those features as included in the material and documentation provided. That would be fraud.
- leereeves 7y ago
  > Tesla sold the dealer a car without FSD Where do you get that idea? If that picture of an invoice is to be believed, even Tesla agrees the car did have FSD when it was sold on Nov 15. And nothing seems to say otherwise. You may expect, for whatever reason, that a used Tesla doesn't include FSD even if the sticker says it does and the feature is enabled on a test drive, but that's not a reasonable expectation. In fact it's quite a surprise, so Tesla needs to make it very clear that that is the case, and there's no evidence here that they have done so.