7 ms·

I don't think that's true, precisely because the employee with a complaint can potentially increase their leverage significantly by educating and organizing oth

by baddox 7y ago

I don't think that's true, precisely because the employee with a complaint can potentially increase their leverage significantly by educating and organizing other employees around the cause. Your analysis seems to assume that there's some fixed percentage of employees who think some action from their employer is bad, and if that percentage is high enough, then all those employees could quit, which would either somehow signal to the employer that their action was bad or would damage the company so much that they would need to change their actions. I think that's wishful thinking, and of course the percentage of employees with a complaint is not fixed and can be directly increased by internal efforts to organize. That applies not just to internal awareness, but also public awareness: note that we're only having discussions about cases where employees attempted to organize other employees.

ocdtrekkie 7y ago
If everyone who participated in the Google Walkout (20% of their workforce) stayed out until Google addressed their complaints, rather than returning to work after their lunch hour was over, all seven demands would've been met, instead of one. (And they probably would've still got paid!) I have my doubts that tech companies could operate with a sudden loss of 20% of their workforce and talent base. If a company knows you will return to work no matter how much you complain, they are not going to take you seriously. (This was the Walkout's mistake.) And if, as an individual, you make too much noise, you'll just get fired. (See numerous individual examples.) Decisive collective action works, and that's what unions figured out a long time ago.
- fao_ 7y ago
  This sort of action is precisely the reason why we have, in the UK, the ability for working men to vote (Originally, they couldn't, it was won by the Chartists in the 1800s), the ability for women to vote, human rights laws, worker's rights laws, and the NHS. More recently McDonalds workers went on a mass strike in the UK for a living wage, and got a pay rise: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/mcdonalds-worker-pay-rise-wages-strike-bakers-union-fast-food-restaurant-a8141151.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/mcdonalds-w...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jimthrow 7y ago
  Considering the massive over supply of labor, I’d say they could very easily replace that 20% several times over before they had any problems finding more engineers.
  - maest 7y ago
    Techies work in a seller's market (as evidenced by the comparatively huge salaries they command). There is definitely no "over supply of labor". One of Google's biggest assets is their huge army of talented techies. I'd go so far as to say losing that would be an existential threat to the business.
    - geofft 7y ago
      Comparative to what? Big tech companies are wildly profitable for their owners. Techies make a lot of money compared to other professions because we genuinely produce a disproportionate amount of value, but that doesn't imply we're in a seller's market. One way you can tell that there's no dearth of labor is that most companies round an "unsure" in the interview process to "no," not "yes."
      - perl4ever 7y ago
        A large part of supply and demand is the amount of immediate liquidity. Employers seem to have the upper hand when hiring typically because they have a bunch of options right then whereas few applicants have multiple simultaneous offers and if they do, they don't have many. But that's not the same as supply and demand of labor on a longer timescale. Somebody who's thought more and more clearly about this could write something better about it, but I felt like pointing out what I think is overlooked.
      - maest 7y ago
        Comparative to most other jobs, of course. I sugggest you ask a non-tech friend about their experience getting a new job: how many applications they've sent out, how many responses they've received and how many interviews they've actually been to. Then compare that to a software dev's hit rates. I submit to you that a halfway decent software dev will have a hard time being unemployed: they might not get hired by FAANG and they might have to code in $LANGUAGE_I_HATE, but they'll be able to get a job at a reasonable salary. Also, consider the fact that there's been a large number of businesses focused on recruitment specifically in the tech area. That's because everyone wants to hire devs and they're willing to pay recruiters to channel the funnel their way. Few other industries have that luxury.
- xtreme 7y ago
  But it is also plausible that if an indefinite strike was on the agenda only 1% of them had joined the walkout instead of 20%, making them easier to let go.
  - ocdtrekkie 7y ago
    True, but this is, again, why unions exist. Because then the union can decide to strike, everyone in the union is expected to participate, and the outcome is successful and people's jobs are protected. If engineers at Google want to be taken seriously, they should unionize.
paxys 7y ago
What do you think is the end result of all the "educating and organizing"? Do you think Google would make major policy decisions (which had massive financial and competitive impacts) because of employees emailing the CEO to voice their displeasure with what they are assigned to do (while they continue to do it regardless)?

by baddox 7y ago

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

If everyone who participated in the Google Walkout (20% of their workforce) stayed out until Google addressed their complaints, rather than returning to work after their lunch hour was over, all seven demands would've been met, instead of one. (And they probably would've still got paid!) I have my doubts that tech companies could operate with a sudden loss of 20% of their workforce and talent base. If a company knows you will return to work no matter how much you complain, they are not going to take you seriously. (This was the Walkout's mistake.) And if, as an individual, you make too much noise, you'll just get fired. (See numerous individual examples.) Decisive collective action works, and that's what unions figured out a long time ago.

fao_ 7y ago
This sort of action is precisely the reason why we have, in the UK, the ability for working men to vote (Originally, they couldn't, it was won by the Chartists in the 1800s), the ability for women to vote, human rights laws, worker's rights laws, and the NHS. More recently McDonalds workers went on a mass strike in the UK for a living wage, and got a pay rise: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/mcdonalds-worker-pay-rise-wages-strike-bakers-union-fast-food-restaurant-a8141151.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/mcdonalds-w...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jimthrow 7y ago
Considering the massive over supply of labor, I’d say they could very easily replace that 20% several times over before they had any problems finding more engineers.
- maest 7y ago
  Techies work in a seller's market (as evidenced by the comparatively huge salaries they command). There is definitely no "over supply of labor". One of Google's biggest assets is their huge army of talented techies. I'd go so far as to say losing that would be an existential threat to the business.
  - geofft 7y ago
    Comparative to what? Big tech companies are wildly profitable for their owners. Techies make a lot of money compared to other professions because we genuinely produce a disproportionate amount of value, but that doesn't imply we're in a seller's market. One way you can tell that there's no dearth of labor is that most companies round an "unsure" in the interview process to "no," not "yes."
    - perl4ever 7y ago
      A large part of supply and demand is the amount of immediate liquidity. Employers seem to have the upper hand when hiring typically because they have a bunch of options right then whereas few applicants have multiple simultaneous offers and if they do, they don't have many. But that's not the same as supply and demand of labor on a longer timescale. Somebody who's thought more and more clearly about this could write something better about it, but I felt like pointing out what I think is overlooked.
    - maest 7y ago
      Comparative to most other jobs, of course. I sugggest you ask a non-tech friend about their experience getting a new job: how many applications they've sent out, how many responses they've received and how many interviews they've actually been to. Then compare that to a software dev's hit rates. I submit to you that a halfway decent software dev will have a hard time being unemployed: they might not get hired by FAANG and they might have to code in $LANGUAGE_I_HATE, but they'll be able to get a job at a reasonable salary. Also, consider the fact that there's been a large number of businesses focused on recruitment specifically in the tech area. That's because everyone wants to hire devs and they're willing to pay recruiters to channel the funnel their way. Few other industries have that luxury.
xtreme 7y ago
But it is also plausible that if an indefinite strike was on the agenda only 1% of them had joined the walkout instead of 20%, making them easier to let go.
- ocdtrekkie 7y ago
  True, but this is, again, why unions exist. Because then the union can decide to strike, everyone in the union is expected to participate, and the outcome is successful and people's jobs are protected. If engineers at Google want to be taken seriously, they should unionize.

paxys 7y ago

What do you think is the end result of all the "educating and organizing"? Do you think Google would make major policy decisions (which had massive financial and competitive impacts) because of employees emailing the CEO to voice their displeasure with what they are assigned to do (while they continue to do it regardless)?