9 ms·

Or if you bought a MacBook and they wiped all of the software you bought from Apple on it and sell the hardware as is? That’s what happens, no? The problem he

Or if you bought a MacBook and they wiped all of the software you bought from Apple on it and sell the hardware as is? That’s what happens, no? The problem here is the lack of disclosure that the car didn’t have FSD. If Tesla buys a car they can resell it with whatever features they’d like.

frogpelt 7y ago
Another HUGE part of this is if you are going to sell your Tesla to a third party, you cannot guarantee the feature set they will get. So, if you pay $8,000 for auto pilot etc. you should not expect to recoup a dime of that money when you sell the car to a buyer who has read this story.
- kempbellt 7y ago
  Seems almost equivalent to selling a personal computer with a copy of Photoshop on it. Before you sell it, you're probably going to want to wipe the hard drive, and therefore Photoshop is gone. I don't know the legalese behind Tesla's features being "licensed" or "sold" as a part of the car, or to the owner, or what the right outcome is here. I get both sides of the argument though.
  - frogpelt 7y ago
    I get the analogy. My point is most people buying used cars will not see used cars and used computers as analogous. And the other point is, even if someone sells a car that supposedly has FDC and EAP enabled it would be foolish to pay for it. Because Tesla can "audit" and remove it on a whim.
    - _ph_ 7y ago
      No, if you buy a car with FSD or Autopilot, Tesla won't remove it on a whim.
      - olivermarks 7y ago
        Anyone read the Tesla Digital Rights Management small print on this? If I buy a car with extra options (leather, premium stereo etc) I would subsequently sell it with those options. It appears Tesla are removing the digital rights options the PO would have paid for, reverting the car to a base model with option buy new subscriptions - is that correct or do I misunderstand?
        _ph_ 7y ago
        You misunderstood. If you privately resell your Tesla, the purchased licensed software stays with the car. This car was sold and priced by Tesla s not having autopilot. Consequentely, they removed it, when they discovered, it was still activated. But a car purchased with the autopilot option, keeps it.
        leereeves 7y ago
        > a car purchased with the autopilot option, keeps it. What evidence inspires you to say that? Do you have private information showing that Tesla did in fact say: "the sticker is wrong, the test drive is wrong, this car doesn't include FSD"? According to the story, Tesla sold this vehicle at auction with FSD enabled, and with a sticker saying it had FSD. In the absence of other evidence, that means Tesla sold the car with the autopilot option, and then removed it.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        Tesla cars are resold privately every day and no one reported that the autopilot was removed. Also the story was corrected and the sticker applied to the original sale of the car (the car was returned to Tesla), not to the sale of the then used car by Tesla to the dealer.
        leereeves 7y ago
        > Also the story was corrected and the sticker applied to the original sale of the car (the car was returned to Tesla), not to the sale of the then used car by Tesla to the dealer. I'm reading the story now and don't see that in there anywhere. That said, it's clear that the sticker describes the car and the price from the original sale. It's not clear whether that sticker was also displayed at the auction, and now that you mention it, the story doesn't say. But I've bought cars at auction before and they were always sold as-is. I'd be livid if the seller broke in a few days later and sabotaged a feature on a car I bought as-is, with the excuse "we didn't mean to include that feature".
  - saghm 7y ago
    I think the difference is that most computers don't come with a fully-licensed copy of Photoshop when they're originally purchased
    - leereeves 7y ago
      Or a sticker saying "Photoshop included".
- leereeves 7y ago
  On the other hand, if FSD is treated like software, you should still own a license for the FSD software, and be able to use it on a new Tesla without paying for it again. But somehow I suspect Tesla won't allow that either, and they'll try to argue that every buyer (even used) has to pay them for FSD on every car. Or they'll switch to a subscription model where you have to pay every year.
- _ph_ 7y ago
  Of course you can. If you bought the car with auto pilot, you can sell a car with auto pilot. Tesla has nothing to do with it. The article describes a case, where the dealer seems to have bought a car without autopilot.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    No, the car had autopilot when Tesla sold it (Nov 15), then Tesla later removed AP, after they sold the car (Nov 18), because the new owner hadn't paid for AP.
    - _ph_ 7y ago
      Autopilot was active, but according to the article update, not purchased by the dealer. The deal between the dealer and the final owner of the car didn't play a role in this.
      - leereeves 7y ago
        The dealer was the owner when Tesla disabled AP, not Tesla. That's a third-party dealer who bought the car at auction, not a Tesla-dealer (which don't exist). The dealer is a private party. It shouldn't matter whether the dealer or Alec was the owner, the point is, Tesla wasn't.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        The question is, whether that dealer bought the car with the autopilot included. If yes, he can sue Tesla, if not, then it was ok for Tesla to disable it. And the updates point to the fact, that the car was sold without autopilot as a feature.
        leereeves 7y ago
        > And the updates point to the fact, that the car was sold without autopilot as a feature. What updates point to that? The sticker says the car had AP, the disclosure doesn't say otherwise, and everyone seems to agree the car did in fact have AP enabled when Tesla sold it on Nov 15. What evidence says Tesla sold the car without AP? It doesn't matter that Tesla's records say the car shouldn't have had AP, it did have it. It also doesn't matter whether Tesla wronged Alec or the dealer here. In either case, if the story is accurate, Tesla sabotaged a car they'd already sold because they accidentally left a feature enabled that they didn't want to.

frogpelt 7y ago

Another HUGE part of this is if you are going to sell your Tesla to a third party, you cannot guarantee the feature set they will get. So, if you pay $8,000 for auto pilot etc. you should not expect to recoup a dime of that money when you sell the car to a buyer who has read this story.

kempbellt 7y ago
Seems almost equivalent to selling a personal computer with a copy of Photoshop on it. Before you sell it, you're probably going to want to wipe the hard drive, and therefore Photoshop is gone. I don't know the legalese behind Tesla's features being "licensed" or "sold" as a part of the car, or to the owner, or what the right outcome is here. I get both sides of the argument though.
- frogpelt 7y ago
  I get the analogy. My point is most people buying used cars will not see used cars and used computers as analogous. And the other point is, even if someone sells a car that supposedly has FDC and EAP enabled it would be foolish to pay for it. Because Tesla can "audit" and remove it on a whim.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    No, if you buy a car with FSD or Autopilot, Tesla won't remove it on a whim.
    - olivermarks 7y ago
      Anyone read the Tesla Digital Rights Management small print on this? If I buy a car with extra options (leather, premium stereo etc) I would subsequently sell it with those options. It appears Tesla are removing the digital rights options the PO would have paid for, reverting the car to a base model with option buy new subscriptions - is that correct or do I misunderstand?
      - _ph_ 7y ago
        You misunderstood. If you privately resell your Tesla, the purchased licensed software stays with the car. This car was sold and priced by Tesla s not having autopilot. Consequentely, they removed it, when they discovered, it was still activated. But a car purchased with the autopilot option, keeps it.
        leereeves 7y ago
        > a car purchased with the autopilot option, keeps it. What evidence inspires you to say that? Do you have private information showing that Tesla did in fact say: "the sticker is wrong, the test drive is wrong, this car doesn't include FSD"? According to the story, Tesla sold this vehicle at auction with FSD enabled, and with a sticker saying it had FSD. In the absence of other evidence, that means Tesla sold the car with the autopilot option, and then removed it.
        _ph_ 7y ago
        Tesla cars are resold privately every day and no one reported that the autopilot was removed. Also the story was corrected and the sticker applied to the original sale of the car (the car was returned to Tesla), not to the sale of the then used car by Tesla to the dealer.
        leereeves 7y ago
        > Also the story was corrected and the sticker applied to the original sale of the car (the car was returned to Tesla), not to the sale of the then used car by Tesla to the dealer. I'm reading the story now and don't see that in there anywhere. That said, it's clear that the sticker describes the car and the price from the original sale. It's not clear whether that sticker was also displayed at the auction, and now that you mention it, the story doesn't say. But I've bought cars at auction before and they were always sold as-is. I'd be livid if the seller broke in a few days later and sabotaged a feature on a car I bought as-is, with the excuse "we didn't mean to include that feature".
- saghm 7y ago
  I think the difference is that most computers don't come with a fully-licensed copy of Photoshop when they're originally purchased
  - leereeves 7y ago
    Or a sticker saying "Photoshop included".
leereeves 7y ago
On the other hand, if FSD is treated like software, you should still own a license for the FSD software, and be able to use it on a new Tesla without paying for it again. But somehow I suspect Tesla won't allow that either, and they'll try to argue that every buyer (even used) has to pay them for FSD on every car. Or they'll switch to a subscription model where you have to pay every year.
_ph_ 7y ago
Of course you can. If you bought the car with auto pilot, you can sell a car with auto pilot. Tesla has nothing to do with it. The article describes a case, where the dealer seems to have bought a car without autopilot.
- leereeves 7y ago
  No, the car had autopilot when Tesla sold it (Nov 15), then Tesla later removed AP, after they sold the car (Nov 18), because the new owner hadn't paid for AP.
  - _ph_ 7y ago
    Autopilot was active, but according to the article update, not purchased by the dealer. The deal between the dealer and the final owner of the car didn't play a role in this.
    - leereeves 7y ago
      The dealer was the owner when Tesla disabled AP, not Tesla. That's a third-party dealer who bought the car at auction, not a Tesla-dealer (which don't exist). The dealer is a private party. It shouldn't matter whether the dealer or Alec was the owner, the point is, Tesla wasn't.
      - _ph_ 7y ago
        The question is, whether that dealer bought the car with the autopilot included. If yes, he can sue Tesla, if not, then it was ok for Tesla to disable it. And the updates point to the fact, that the car was sold without autopilot as a feature.
        leereeves 7y ago
        > And the updates point to the fact, that the car was sold without autopilot as a feature. What updates point to that? The sticker says the car had AP, the disclosure doesn't say otherwise, and everyone seems to agree the car did in fact have AP enabled when Tesla sold it on Nov 15. What evidence says Tesla sold the car without AP? It doesn't matter that Tesla's records say the car shouldn't have had AP, it did have it. It also doesn't matter whether Tesla wronged Alec or the dealer here. In either case, if the story is accurate, Tesla sabotaged a car they'd already sold because they accidentally left a feature enabled that they didn't want to.