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The real story is totally missing at this point, so it’s not surprising that the discussion has gone totally off the rails. My understanding is this; any time

by zaroth 7y ago

The real story is totally missing at this point, so it’s not surprising that the discussion has gone totally off the rails. My understanding is this; any time Tesla buys back or is returned one of its cars, all optional features are cleared off the car. If you sell your used Model S or Model 3 with FSD back to Tesla, one day in the future you may see that VIN for sale on Tesla.com or elsewhere, but the FSD, Acceleration Boost, Homelink, any software upgrades will be cleared off, and available for purchase optionally by the new owner. In a private party sale, the optional features that are currently active on a car will always stay intact. Tesla does not and will not remove a feature from a car unless they have legal possession of the car. The software features on the original sales sticker are irrelevant. The used car dealer bought a car from Tesla without EAP or FSD, and we have no documentation to say otherwise. The feature was disabled while the used car dealer still had the car, before it was sold to the now current owner. When the car was returned under lemon-law back to Tesla, they have every right to reconfigure it however they see fit. If the used car dealer can provide documentation that Tesla sold them EAP or FSD then it’s a different story. That has not happened.

castratikron 7y ago
Funny that less than 24 hours ago there was a story on the front page of HN full of moral outrage about a Ford car that was still being accessible via the app after someone's lease expired on the car. In that case the dealership didn't do a reset of the software after the lease ended.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  This has happened multiple times with Teslas, too.
djstein 7y ago
this is definitely not true speaking as someone who just bought a used Tesla from Tesla with all software features
- zaroth 7y ago
  I’m not saying you can’t buy a used Tesla from Tesla.com with FSD or Acceleration Boost, I’m saying that they are selling that feature over again to you at that time. There are dozens of forum posts discussing this over the years on Tesla Motors Club and Reddit. [1] People get confused because a site might list a car based on the VIN as having FSD but on Tesla.com the car is listed without FSD and the price is lower. It’s up to Tesla to decide if they want to try to sell a used car that they own with or without certain software features. It all comes down to the sales contract between Tesla and the new owner (in this case the used car dealer) which is the key piece of information missing in this story. [1] - Just one example... https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/cx3dww/more_proof_that_tesla_is_removing_eap_fsd_from/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/cx3dww/more_proo...
  - gnicholas 7y ago
    So does that mean if you sell a Tesla back to the company, the don't take into account the fact that you paid for FSD? Also, when people buy a used Tesla and add FSD, do they charge the same price as buying it new? Most Teslas aren't that old, but I could imagine if you bought one with 25% of its useful life gone, you'd find it pretty unfair if they asked 100% of the FSD price. Also, just on a price discrimination basis, I'd think people who buy new Teslas are willing/able to pay more than people who buy used ones.
    - rootusrootus 7y ago
      > the don't take into account the fact that you paid for FSD Correct, if you trade-in your car to Tesla, they do not consider software upgrades as having any value. If you want to recoup any resale value for FSD you need to sell to someone other than Tesla.
- xref 7y ago
  Parent noted you can buy all the fancy Tesla features on a used car. That doesn’t change the fact they were disabled when Tesla dealership took back possession of the car then later you paid to unlock them upon purchase. It does seem like a wash however, not “paying twice” for the same features. The resale price is lower for Tesla without those features. And on a lemon law return nobody actually paid money for those features in the end anyway.
Waterluvian 7y ago
If what you've said is all accurate, then yeah, absolutely 100%. Imagine if you return a MacBook to Apple. As part of refurbishing it, they disable half the RAM (make up a reason, it's broken or whatever). And then sell it to someone described as in its current state. Heck Tesla could take the engine out and sell it as a lawn ornament. As long as they're not committing crimes by misrepresenting what they're selling.
- sukilot 7y ago
  > as-is. with original RAM advertised, or the new advertised RAM advertised, or no mention?
- austenallred 7y ago
  Or if you bought a MacBook and they wiped all of the software you bought from Apple on it and sell the hardware as is? That’s what happens, no? The problem here is the lack of disclosure that the car didn’t have FSD. If Tesla buys a car they can resell it with whatever features they’d like.
  - frogpelt 7y ago
    Another HUGE part of this is if you are going to sell your Tesla to a third party, you cannot guarantee the feature set they will get. So, if you pay $8,000 for auto pilot etc. you should not expect to recoup a dime of that money when you sell the car to a buyer who has read this story.
    - kempbellt 7y ago
      Seems almost equivalent to selling a personal computer with a copy of Photoshop on it. Before you sell it, you're probably going to want to wipe the hard drive, and therefore Photoshop is gone. I don't know the legalese behind Tesla's features being "licensed" or "sold" as a part of the car, or to the owner, or what the right outcome is here. I get both sides of the argument though.
      - 7y ago
gnicholas 7y ago
> Tesla does not and will not remove a feature from a car unless they have legal possession of the car. Well it seems they have done just this. > If the used car dealer can provide documentation that Tesla sold them EAP or FSD then it’s a different story. That has not happened. Others have pointed to the Monroney sticker in the Jalopnik article, which lists this feature.
- zaroth 7y ago
  From what I gather, Tesla did have possession of the car when they removed the feature. The Monroney sticker shows the original sales price and options of the car, right? The sticker is not a certification that all those features are still present on the vehicle. What’s missing from this story is if there was a sales receipt which listed FSD between Tesla and the used car dealer.
  - gnicholas 7y ago
    Based on the dates in the Jalopnik article, I think they removed it after the sale to the dealer: > Tesla officially sold the car to the dealership on November 15, a date I’ve confirmed by seeing the car’s title. On November 18, Tesla seems to have conducted an “audit” of the car remotely. The result of that audit was that when the car’s software was updated to the latest version in December, the Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self Driving Capability (FSD) were removed from the car.
  - dlgeek 7y ago
    The disclosure statement needs to clarify any changes between the sticker and reality, and they showed that it did not indicate the removal of those features.
  - leereeves 7y ago
    > What’s missing from this story is if there was a sales receipt which listed FSD between Tesla and the used car dealer. That seems unlikely. Cars at auction are usually sold as-is.
jiqiren 7y ago
> The feature was disabled while the used car dealer still had the car, before it was sold to the now current owner. This is not what happened according to the article. A person bought the car with those features still existing on the car then ran an update. The update removed the features.
- binaryblitz 7y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if Jalopnik purposefully left out or changed information. I was a reader of theirs for years, but they are CLEARLY anti-Tesla, and honestly anti-electric car.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - unapologetic 7y ago
    or maybe they just aren't sycophantic tesla fanboys.
- nimajneb 7y ago
  An update to the article says, Dealer: "I bought that vehicle personally, and used the full self drive on it multiple times. It was working fine. One day, a random message popped up saying your autopilot has been upgraded after a software update. Then it disappeared. I figured it was a glitch. I already had an agreement with Alec to purchase the vehicle."
  - leereeves 7y ago
    Interesting. Hard to reconcile with what the article says: > The dealer bought the car on Nov 15 > Tesla removed AP on Nov 18 (according to the note in the invoice) > Alec bought the car on Dec 20. If that's all correct, the dealer had the car with FSD for only 3 days, and without FSD for over a month.
crtlaltdel 7y ago
im super lazy; can you link to the docs that cover this?
0xmohit 7y ago
Hello, Elon Musk!
MeltySmelty 7y ago
LOL! you idiots are ok with DLC models for vehicles? please god, let this bubble burst already.
vl 7y ago
Homelink is not software feature on Model 3 (anymore), requires installation of hardware module.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
syshum 7y ago
>>The real story is totally missing at this point, so it’s not surprising that the discussion has gone totally off the rails. The real story is it seems there is no bounds to the amount of excuses Tesla fans will use to justify unethical behavior by the company. The mirror with Apple fans is astounding In fact I wonder how many Telsa owners are also hardcore Apple fans as well, the psychology is very similar >> any time Tesla buys back or is returned one of its cars, all optional features are cleared off the car. and you have no ethical or other problems with this? >>In a private party sale, the optional features that are currently active on a car will always stay intact. There is zero rational for you to make that claim, and zero supporting evidence that this will remain the case in perpetually. In fact it would not come as a shock to me if this is a way for them to limit private party sales by lowering the value of the cars. Especially if they start getting less and less trade in's as the EV market becomes more saturated in the next 5 years >>The software features on the original sales sticker are irrelevant. That is the entire point, they should be. Disabling those features so they and double dip on the sales is HIGHLY unethical IMO >>When the car was returned under lemon-law back to Tesla Where was it stated the car was returned under a lemon-law
vanniv 7y ago
I think there is a bigger issue with the idea that, just because they don't remote-brick your cars today just because they feel like it doesn't mean they can't or won't someday in the future. I 100% won't buy a Tesla because you have no way of knowing what you own, and might find out that you own nothing at all someday of you make Elon unhappy.
omgwtfbyobbq 7y ago
From what I've seen, Tesla doesn't normally remove features when they sell used vehicles. This used S for instance comes with FSD. https://www.tesla.com/used/5YJSA1E26HF231679 https://www.tesla.com/used/5YJSA1E26HF231679 Having said that, what they did was bootsy and I suspect illegal. If they want to remove something, do it before they sell the car. A seller should not be able to go back and remove something, tangible or not, after the sale, just because they intended to remove before the sale and forgot to.

by zaroth 7y ago

castratikron 7y ago

Funny that less than 24 hours ago there was a story on the front page of HN full of moral outrage about a Ford car that was still being accessible via the app after someone's lease expired on the car. In that case the dealership didn't do a reset of the software after the lease ended.

rootusrootus 7y ago
This has happened multiple times with Teslas, too.

djstein 7y ago

this is definitely not true speaking as someone who just bought a used Tesla from Tesla with all software features

zaroth 7y ago
I’m not saying you can’t buy a used Tesla from Tesla.com with FSD or Acceleration Boost, I’m saying that they are selling that feature over again to you at that time. There are dozens of forum posts discussing this over the years on Tesla Motors Club and Reddit. [1] People get confused because a site might list a car based on the VIN as having FSD but on Tesla.com the car is listed without FSD and the price is lower. It’s up to Tesla to decide if they want to try to sell a used car that they own with or without certain software features. It all comes down to the sales contract between Tesla and the new owner (in this case the used car dealer) which is the key piece of information missing in this story. [1] - Just one example... https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/cx3dww/more_proof_that_tesla_is_removing_eap_fsd_from/ https://www.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/cx3dww/more_proo...
- gnicholas 7y ago
  So does that mean if you sell a Tesla back to the company, the don't take into account the fact that you paid for FSD? Also, when people buy a used Tesla and add FSD, do they charge the same price as buying it new? Most Teslas aren't that old, but I could imagine if you bought one with 25% of its useful life gone, you'd find it pretty unfair if they asked 100% of the FSD price. Also, just on a price discrimination basis, I'd think people who buy new Teslas are willing/able to pay more than people who buy used ones.
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    > the don't take into account the fact that you paid for FSD Correct, if you trade-in your car to Tesla, they do not consider software upgrades as having any value. If you want to recoup any resale value for FSD you need to sell to someone other than Tesla.
xref 7y ago
Parent noted you can buy all the fancy Tesla features on a used car. That doesn’t change the fact they were disabled when Tesla dealership took back possession of the car then later you paid to unlock them upon purchase. It does seem like a wash however, not “paying twice” for the same features. The resale price is lower for Tesla without those features. And on a lemon law return nobody actually paid money for those features in the end anyway.

Waterluvian 7y ago

If what you've said is all accurate, then yeah, absolutely 100%. Imagine if you return a MacBook to Apple. As part of refurbishing it, they disable half the RAM (make up a reason, it's broken or whatever). And then sell it to someone described as in its current state. Heck Tesla could take the engine out and sell it as a lawn ornament. As long as they're not committing crimes by misrepresenting what they're selling.

sukilot 7y ago
> as-is. with original RAM advertised, or the new advertised RAM advertised, or no mention?
austenallred 7y ago
Or if you bought a MacBook and they wiped all of the software you bought from Apple on it and sell the hardware as is? That’s what happens, no? The problem here is the lack of disclosure that the car didn’t have FSD. If Tesla buys a car they can resell it with whatever features they’d like.
- frogpelt 7y ago
  Another HUGE part of this is if you are going to sell your Tesla to a third party, you cannot guarantee the feature set they will get. So, if you pay $8,000 for auto pilot etc. you should not expect to recoup a dime of that money when you sell the car to a buyer who has read this story.
  - kempbellt 7y ago
    Seems almost equivalent to selling a personal computer with a copy of Photoshop on it. Before you sell it, you're probably going to want to wipe the hard drive, and therefore Photoshop is gone. I don't know the legalese behind Tesla's features being "licensed" or "sold" as a part of the car, or to the owner, or what the right outcome is here. I get both sides of the argument though.
    - 7y ago

gnicholas 7y ago

> Tesla does not and will not remove a feature from a car unless they have legal possession of the car. Well it seems they have done just this. > If the used car dealer can provide documentation that Tesla sold them EAP or FSD then it’s a different story. That has not happened. Others have pointed to the Monroney sticker in the Jalopnik article, which lists this feature.

zaroth 7y ago
From what I gather, Tesla did have possession of the car when they removed the feature. The Monroney sticker shows the original sales price and options of the car, right? The sticker is not a certification that all those features are still present on the vehicle. What’s missing from this story is if there was a sales receipt which listed FSD between Tesla and the used car dealer.
- gnicholas 7y ago
  Based on the dates in the Jalopnik article, I think they removed it after the sale to the dealer: > Tesla officially sold the car to the dealership on November 15, a date I’ve confirmed by seeing the car’s title. On November 18, Tesla seems to have conducted an “audit” of the car remotely. The result of that audit was that when the car’s software was updated to the latest version in December, the Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self Driving Capability (FSD) were removed from the car.
- dlgeek 7y ago
  The disclosure statement needs to clarify any changes between the sticker and reality, and they showed that it did not indicate the removal of those features.
- leereeves 7y ago
  > What’s missing from this story is if there was a sales receipt which listed FSD between Tesla and the used car dealer. That seems unlikely. Cars at auction are usually sold as-is.

jiqiren 7y ago

> The feature was disabled while the used car dealer still had the car, before it was sold to the now current owner. This is not what happened according to the article. A person bought the car with those features still existing on the car then ran an update. The update removed the features.

binaryblitz 7y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if Jalopnik purposefully left out or changed information. I was a reader of theirs for years, but they are CLEARLY anti-Tesla, and honestly anti-electric car.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- unapologetic 7y ago
  or maybe they just aren't sycophantic tesla fanboys.
nimajneb 7y ago
An update to the article says, Dealer: "I bought that vehicle personally, and used the full self drive on it multiple times. It was working fine. One day, a random message popped up saying your autopilot has been upgraded after a software update. Then it disappeared. I figured it was a glitch. I already had an agreement with Alec to purchase the vehicle."
- leereeves 7y ago
  Interesting. Hard to reconcile with what the article says: > The dealer bought the car on Nov 15 > Tesla removed AP on Nov 18 (according to the note in the invoice) > Alec bought the car on Dec 20. If that's all correct, the dealer had the car with FSD for only 3 days, and without FSD for over a month.

crtlaltdel 7y ago

im super lazy; can you link to the docs that cover this?

0xmohit 7y ago

Hello, Elon Musk!

MeltySmelty 7y ago

LOL! you idiots are ok with DLC models for vehicles? please god, let this bubble burst already.

vl 7y ago

Homelink is not software feature on Model 3 (anymore), requires installation of hardware module.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

syshum 7y ago

>>The real story is totally missing at this point, so it’s not surprising that the discussion has gone totally off the rails. The real story is it seems there is no bounds to the amount of excuses Tesla fans will use to justify unethical behavior by the company. The mirror with Apple fans is astounding In fact I wonder how many Telsa owners are also hardcore Apple fans as well, the psychology is very similar >> any time Tesla buys back or is returned one of its cars, all optional features are cleared off the car. and you have no ethical or other problems with this? >>In a private party sale, the optional features that are currently active on a car will always stay intact. There is zero rational for you to make that claim, and zero supporting evidence that this will remain the case in perpetually. In fact it would not come as a shock to me if this is a way for them to limit private party sales by lowering the value of the cars. Especially if they start getting less and less trade in's as the EV market becomes more saturated in the next 5 years >>The software features on the original sales sticker are irrelevant. That is the entire point, they should be. Disabling those features so they and double dip on the sales is HIGHLY unethical IMO >>When the car was returned under lemon-law back to Tesla Where was it stated the car was returned under a lemon-law

vanniv 7y ago

I think there is a bigger issue with the idea that, just because they don't remote-brick your cars today just because they feel like it doesn't mean they can't or won't someday in the future. I 100% won't buy a Tesla because you have no way of knowing what you own, and might find out that you own nothing at all someday of you make Elon unhappy.

omgwtfbyobbq 7y ago

From what I've seen, Tesla doesn't normally remove features when they sell used vehicles. This used S for instance comes with FSD. https://www.tesla.com/used/5YJSA1E26HF231679 https://www.tesla.com/used/5YJSA1E26HF231679 Having said that, what they did was bootsy and I suspect illegal. If they want to remove something, do it before they sell the car. A seller should not be able to go back and remove something, tangible or not, after the sale, just because they intended to remove before the sale and forgot to.