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I worked as a software engineer in London for about a year in 2015. Socially, felt about equivalent to an IT specialist in the USA. Someone who has a specialize

I worked as a software engineer in London for about a year in 2015. Socially, felt about equivalent to an IT specialist in the USA. Someone who has a specialized skill but not considered a true white-collar professional. Huge contrast with SF, where I work now. Here in SF engineers are comfortably near the top of the professional class and have the social capital to move into careers in investing/management/exec in the right circumstances. This is also reflected in compensation. There are lots of things broken about SF as well of course, but along this axis at least it's a much nicer place to be an engineer!

chrisseaton 7y ago
If people have seen the IT Crowd - that’s how developers are seen in the UK by the other social classes.
- heavenlyblue 7y ago
  How much are you earning? I am a Lithuanian citizen working on London as a software engineer and I am sometimes afraid of mentioning what work I do as people immediately get uncomfortable about how much I am either earning or how good my life is. I could be surrounded by the wrong class of people, obviously. (I do, however, have 9 good years in the industry at the age of 28; so usually act quite confidently)
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    I think you may be massively underestimating how much your friends who work in finance, international relations, law etc are making, if you think this. It's a whole other tier of compensation and social status in the UK. PPE's and theology graduates making literal million-pound bonuses. In the UK it's the humanities students who run the show and get the real money. As a concrete example - I think basic new grads at Linklaters, a pretty pedestrian, non-sexy law firm doing boring routine corporate stuff, not Google-style super-stars, get £83k https://www.legalcheek.com/2018/10/linklaters-bumps-junior-lawyer-base-rate-pay-to-83000/ https://www.legalcheek.com/2018/10/linklaters-bumps-junior-l.... That's an open application, not something targeted at particularly talented specific people. I think that's more than even Google new-grad pay in London. Google! The highest of the high tier international tech companies. How does it compare to what you see engineer new-grads getting?
    - te_chris 7y ago
      You’re massively over estimating law. Magic Circle and American firms pay hugely....but they’re basically 1.5x FTE roles and you’ll work the hours.
      - chrisseaton 7y ago
        How am I over-estimating? That's public salary information. Google's salary information isn't public but I believe it's around £60k for a basic new-grad? That's the best a junior developer is going to get in London outside extraordinary circumstances. Pales in comparison to a standard law job grad scheme.
        te_chris 7y ago
        Because that’s a small fraction of law jobs, and as I said, the expectation with these jobs is that you basically work 1.5 times normal full time hours. I have friends who are senior associates at magic circle law firms and their idea of quiet is leaving at 8. Heavy is after midnight. It’s a different world - I don’t know anyone doing that in tech outside early stage founders. Outside magic circle et al, salaries are lower and hours are more normal. Also, before they become a grad but after university they spend 2 years doing what’s known as a “training contract” while they do their professional quals. and the pay is much lower during this time. Graduate in law is after this period.
        cameronbrown 7y ago
        > 60k base salary not including stock - which can be a huge amount even at entry-level.
    - tomp 7y ago
      wow! So what kind of professions, and how many years of experience, get £1m+ bonuses (if you happen to know)? AFAIK the only example that I'm aware is traders and/or high-level investment bankers (Director+ level)...
    - sweeneyrod 7y ago
      No, you're massively overestimating median pay in finance. Essentially no-one is getting million pound bonuses; 90% of bankers are vice presidents or below and will be unlikely to get bonuses above £200k. Obviously that's still a lot, but anyone who's been at Google for a decade (the tenure you would need to get the highest bonuses in that range) is probably also doing OK. And it's very weird to call Linklaters "a pretty pedestrian, non-sexy law firm doing boring routine corporate stuff". They're in the Magic Circle, which is the British legal equivalent of FAANG. Their new grad roles will be just as competitive as Google's, if not more so. That the work their grads will do will be more boring seems like a reason for them to pay more, not less (not to mention the difference in number of hours).
timruffles 7y ago
I’m actually very surprised, and interested, to hear this. I’ve never felt software was looked down on in any middle class/professional circle I’ve mixed in. Perhaps a generational/geographic/tribe thing? 32y/o, London for 13 years, left of centre. Conversely, when I’m in SF I do feel a bit anxious about saying what I do - when I’m talking to people who aren’t in tech - due to the inequality/negative image of techies.

chrisseaton 7y ago

If people have seen the IT Crowd - that’s how developers are seen in the UK by the other social classes.

heavenlyblue 7y ago
How much are you earning? I am a Lithuanian citizen working on London as a software engineer and I am sometimes afraid of mentioning what work I do as people immediately get uncomfortable about how much I am either earning or how good my life is. I could be surrounded by the wrong class of people, obviously. (I do, however, have 9 good years in the industry at the age of 28; so usually act quite confidently)
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  I think you may be massively underestimating how much your friends who work in finance, international relations, law etc are making, if you think this. It's a whole other tier of compensation and social status in the UK. PPE's and theology graduates making literal million-pound bonuses. In the UK it's the humanities students who run the show and get the real money. As a concrete example - I think basic new grads at Linklaters, a pretty pedestrian, non-sexy law firm doing boring routine corporate stuff, not Google-style super-stars, get £83k https://www.legalcheek.com/2018/10/linklaters-bumps-junior-lawyer-base-rate-pay-to-83000/ https://www.legalcheek.com/2018/10/linklaters-bumps-junior-l.... That's an open application, not something targeted at particularly talented specific people. I think that's more than even Google new-grad pay in London. Google! The highest of the high tier international tech companies. How does it compare to what you see engineer new-grads getting?
  - te_chris 7y ago
    You’re massively over estimating law. Magic Circle and American firms pay hugely....but they’re basically 1.5x FTE roles and you’ll work the hours.
    - chrisseaton 7y ago
      How am I over-estimating? That's public salary information. Google's salary information isn't public but I believe it's around £60k for a basic new-grad? That's the best a junior developer is going to get in London outside extraordinary circumstances. Pales in comparison to a standard law job grad scheme.
      - te_chris 7y ago
        Because that’s a small fraction of law jobs, and as I said, the expectation with these jobs is that you basically work 1.5 times normal full time hours. I have friends who are senior associates at magic circle law firms and their idea of quiet is leaving at 8. Heavy is after midnight. It’s a different world - I don’t know anyone doing that in tech outside early stage founders. Outside magic circle et al, salaries are lower and hours are more normal. Also, before they become a grad but after university they spend 2 years doing what’s known as a “training contract” while they do their professional quals. and the pay is much lower during this time. Graduate in law is after this period.
      - cameronbrown 7y ago
        > 60k base salary not including stock - which can be a huge amount even at entry-level.
  - tomp 7y ago
    wow! So what kind of professions, and how many years of experience, get £1m+ bonuses (if you happen to know)? AFAIK the only example that I'm aware is traders and/or high-level investment bankers (Director+ level)...
  - sweeneyrod 7y ago
    No, you're massively overestimating median pay in finance. Essentially no-one is getting million pound bonuses; 90% of bankers are vice presidents or below and will be unlikely to get bonuses above £200k. Obviously that's still a lot, but anyone who's been at Google for a decade (the tenure you would need to get the highest bonuses in that range) is probably also doing OK. And it's very weird to call Linklaters "a pretty pedestrian, non-sexy law firm doing boring routine corporate stuff". They're in the Magic Circle, which is the British legal equivalent of FAANG. Their new grad roles will be just as competitive as Google's, if not more so. That the work their grads will do will be more boring seems like a reason for them to pay more, not less (not to mention the difference in number of hours).

timruffles 7y ago

I’m actually very surprised, and interested, to hear this. I’ve never felt software was looked down on in any middle class/professional circle I’ve mixed in. Perhaps a generational/geographic/tribe thing? 32y/o, London for 13 years, left of centre. Conversely, when I’m in SF I do feel a bit anxious about saying what I do - when I’m talking to people who aren’t in tech - due to the inequality/negative image of techies.