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UK to host spyware firm accused of aiding human rights abuses

75 points by LinuxBender 7y ago

dang 7y ago
Url changed from https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-government-rolls-out-the-red-carpet-for-infamous-spyware-vendor/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-government-rolls-out-the-re..., which points to this.
EvilSpark 7y ago
I sort of guessed that it's definitely an Israeli company. Otherwise which country and it's Companies get every legal permission after breaking every possible law?
- crispinb 7y ago
  Er just about every nation, ever? As nations develop legal & regulatory systems, the means of corruption changes, but the corruption stays. In India companies directly pay politicians to skirt regulations. Here in Australia that's rarer, but the corporations via lobbyists simply write the regulations that they then largely conform to. Same deal. Different means.
  - celticninja 7y ago
    I guess GP means state sanctioned support. But I don't agree that this is an Israeli only thing, Hacking Team are Italian and do the same thing.
    - crispinb 7y ago
      Sure - as it happens my nation (Australia) has far fewer of the kind of entanglements that prompt this particular activity, compared to Israel. But you can entirely sure that if we did, we'd allow tech spying lobbyists to write the necessary laws to cover them.
      - somesortofsystm 7y ago
        Australia is about 100x better at hiding its entanglements than Israel, which has had an overt show of force policy for decades. Australia, on the other hand, has so many layers and levels of secrecy around its state-run operations of this nature, that its impossible, truly, to really ever know. Australia leads the way when it comes to repressing free speech and the public right of knowledge over what is being done in their name by the ADF, and has even taught Israel a few things or two about keeping its internal populations at heel when something nasty inevitably leaks out. And then there is that whole secret court, secret prison, secret prisoner thing.
- rurban 7y ago
  You've also got Germany (FinFisher), Italy (Hacking Group), and the USA for sure. Probably more.
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  https://buggedplanet.info/index.php?title=Main_Page https://buggedplanet.info/index.php?title=Main_Page
- Udik 7y ago
  Not to mention that the UK is "extremely friendly" to Israel. Johnson after winning the elections gave a ministry to Priti Patel, who had been removed from a previous May government for having secret meetings with Israeli officials during her tenure. One of Johnson's first acts was to propose a law to ban BDS, the movement promoting boycotting and sanctioning Israel.
nimbius 7y ago
TL;DR: its the NSO Group These are the same guys who were outright permabanned from Facebook for hacking the whatsapp of about 1400 diplomats, government officials, human-rights activists, lawyers, and journalists scattered across the world. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/30/nso_facebook_employees/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/30/nso_facebook_employ... If a shady government wants you gone (and doesnt have the resources for black site rendition like the US) then NSO is basically their starting point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group#Pegasus_spyware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group#Pegasus_spyware
- noarchy 7y ago
  By "shady government", does this not include the UK government itself at this point? And we don't yet know which other governments will be represented, but we can apparently expect around 60, as per the article. That's a lot of potential shadiness.
  - crispinb 7y ago
    Yes, though perhaps 'shady population' is more like it. When I lived in Coventry many years ago, several of my neighbours worked for a local firm on manufacturing lines churning out torture equipment. It was no great secret, and no-one had a problem with it.
    - katmannthree 7y ago
      What were they making?
      - crispinb 7y ago
        Leg irons & electrocution gear were the two items I specifically remember.
    - BTinfinity 7y ago
      Might be a bit of a stretch to call everyone in the UK shady based on your experiences of one single city.
miohtama 7y ago
> In the last four years they have included countries whose human rights records have been criticised such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the UAE, Oman, Qatar and Hong Kong. A perfect party to sell stuff for those whose other hand is operating a bone saw
- DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
  fwiw, using the prominent example of DarkMatter they're staffed mainly by Europeans, Americans, Indians. Nobody critics these people who voluntarily go there to work and instead we all pretend "Technology is Neutral".
  - ryanlol 7y ago
    Really?
    - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
      well yes. quickest way to verify my claim is to check LinkedIn for who works at DarkMatter: https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrentCompany=%5B%226395240%22%5D https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrent... This is a good read too: https://theintercept.com/2016/10/24/darkmatter-united-arab-emirates-spies-for-hire/ https://theintercept.com/2016/10/24/darkmatter-united-arab-e... Since they started they have become more careful about compartmentalization and making efforts to conceil their activities by shell'ing out (pun intended) by using new companies/structures for sensitive ops that can effect how they are perceived on the market. As an American who works there once told me: "we have a good thing going here." (this was just a few weeks after this happened: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19308430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19308430) I don't want to sound snarky but I would have assumed from your many excellent / on-point comments here over the years that you're well read and informed on them ;) Edit: it's very hard to say no to 0 income tax.
      - ryanlol 7y ago
        I know who works at DarkMatter, it’s this part I was picking up on: >Nobody critics these people who voluntarily go there to work and instead we all pretend "Technology is Neutral". This really doesn’t match my experiences. Maybe we hang out in rather different circles though? OTOH, unsurprisingly the people making their living in the state-sponsored offsec space aren’t going to complain about DarkMatter & co.

75 points by LinuxBender 7y ago

dang 7y ago

Url changed from https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-government-rolls-out-the-red-carpet-for-infamous-spyware-vendor/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/uk-government-rolls-out-the-re..., which points to this.

EvilSpark 7y ago

I sort of guessed that it's definitely an Israeli company. Otherwise which country and it's Companies get every legal permission after breaking every possible law?

crispinb 7y ago
Er just about every nation, ever? As nations develop legal & regulatory systems, the means of corruption changes, but the corruption stays. In India companies directly pay politicians to skirt regulations. Here in Australia that's rarer, but the corporations via lobbyists simply write the regulations that they then largely conform to. Same deal. Different means.
- celticninja 7y ago
  I guess GP means state sanctioned support. But I don't agree that this is an Israeli only thing, Hacking Team are Italian and do the same thing.
  - crispinb 7y ago
    Sure - as it happens my nation (Australia) has far fewer of the kind of entanglements that prompt this particular activity, compared to Israel. But you can entirely sure that if we did, we'd allow tech spying lobbyists to write the necessary laws to cover them.
    - somesortofsystm 7y ago
      Australia is about 100x better at hiding its entanglements than Israel, which has had an overt show of force policy for decades. Australia, on the other hand, has so many layers and levels of secrecy around its state-run operations of this nature, that its impossible, truly, to really ever know. Australia leads the way when it comes to repressing free speech and the public right of knowledge over what is being done in their name by the ADF, and has even taught Israel a few things or two about keeping its internal populations at heel when something nasty inevitably leaks out. And then there is that whole secret court, secret prison, secret prisoner thing.
rurban 7y ago
You've also got Germany (FinFisher), Italy (Hacking Group), and the USA for sure. Probably more.
DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
https://buggedplanet.info/index.php?title=Main_Page https://buggedplanet.info/index.php?title=Main_Page
Udik 7y ago
Not to mention that the UK is "extremely friendly" to Israel. Johnson after winning the elections gave a ministry to Priti Patel, who had been removed from a previous May government for having secret meetings with Israeli officials during her tenure. One of Johnson's first acts was to propose a law to ban BDS, the movement promoting boycotting and sanctioning Israel.

nimbius 7y ago

TL;DR: its the NSO Group These are the same guys who were outright permabanned from Facebook for hacking the whatsapp of about 1400 diplomats, government officials, human-rights activists, lawyers, and journalists scattered across the world. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/30/nso_facebook_employees/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/10/30/nso_facebook_employ... If a shady government wants you gone (and doesnt have the resources for black site rendition like the US) then NSO is basically their starting point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group#Pegasus_spyware https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group#Pegasus_spyware

noarchy 7y ago
By "shady government", does this not include the UK government itself at this point? And we don't yet know which other governments will be represented, but we can apparently expect around 60, as per the article. That's a lot of potential shadiness.
- crispinb 7y ago
  Yes, though perhaps 'shady population' is more like it. When I lived in Coventry many years ago, several of my neighbours worked for a local firm on manufacturing lines churning out torture equipment. It was no great secret, and no-one had a problem with it.
  - katmannthree 7y ago
    What were they making?
    - crispinb 7y ago
      Leg irons & electrocution gear were the two items I specifically remember.
  - BTinfinity 7y ago
    Might be a bit of a stretch to call everyone in the UK shady based on your experiences of one single city.

miohtama 7y ago

> In the last four years they have included countries whose human rights records have been criticised such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the UAE, Oman, Qatar and Hong Kong. A perfect party to sell stuff for those whose other hand is operating a bone saw

DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
fwiw, using the prominent example of DarkMatter they're staffed mainly by Europeans, Americans, Indians. Nobody critics these people who voluntarily go there to work and instead we all pretend "Technology is Neutral".
- ryanlol 7y ago
  Really?
  - DyslexicAtheist 7y ago
    well yes. quickest way to verify my claim is to check LinkedIn for who works at DarkMatter: https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrentCompany=%5B%226395240%22%5D https://www.linkedin.com/search/results/people/?facetCurrent... This is a good read too: https://theintercept.com/2016/10/24/darkmatter-united-arab-emirates-spies-for-hire/ https://theintercept.com/2016/10/24/darkmatter-united-arab-e... Since they started they have become more careful about compartmentalization and making efforts to conceil their activities by shell'ing out (pun intended) by using new companies/structures for sensitive ops that can effect how they are perceived on the market. As an American who works there once told me: "we have a good thing going here." (this was just a few weeks after this happened: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19308430 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19308430) I don't want to sound snarky but I would have assumed from your many excellent / on-point comments here over the years that you're well read and informed on them ;) Edit: it's very hard to say no to 0 income tax.
    - ryanlol 7y ago
      I know who works at DarkMatter, it’s this part I was picking up on: >Nobody critics these people who voluntarily go there to work and instead we all pretend "Technology is Neutral". This really doesn’t match my experiences. Maybe we hang out in rather different circles though? OTOH, unsurprisingly the people making their living in the state-sponsored offsec space aren’t going to complain about DarkMatter & co.