6 ms·
Gitlab Saleswomen “told to wear short skirts, heels and 'step it up'”
- PaulHoule 7y agoA story I've heard more than once is that techie people are intimidated by (for lack of a better term) sexy saleswomen and that actually somebody like my mother-in-law who has had a lifetime to develop customer service skills is often more effective.
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- gremlinsinc 7y agoI can see where overt sexualization could be a distraction... like dressed as a model or something...esp when I was younger. Girl next door, or soccer mom might less intimidating as well as the MIL for social anxiety types... A lot of geeks have social anxiety, and are like Raj from big bang theory around the opposite sex -though I think you grow out of it when you're in your 30's esp if married and have to live with a woman. Also dressing like a model could have an air of elitism or superiority if they're wearing like something that cost > $2k obviously. So, I could see that also being a hinderance, people like to deal with people similar to them, or at least I could see it easier to build a rapport. That probably goes both ways though regardless of sex. Like a car salesman in a normal suit with a mickey mouse watch or one in something a boy band artist would wear with an expensive rolex lol.
- holstvoogd 7y agoThey literally link to the previous post on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22231548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22231548
- kmlx 7y agowere the men asked to "buff it up", have beards and only wear suits, ties and dress shoes? seriously, this whole thing with telling people what to wear and how to act is depressing.
- everdrive 7y agoI suspect the men are explicitly told how to dress, act, and wear their facial hair. Sales is sleazy, there's no avoiding it.
- brighton36 7y agoHumans judge humans based on habitus and appearance. Being a salesperson requires charm. I don't see what the scandal is here.
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- elil17 7y agoEven if they were, asking someone to dress fancy is different then asking them to wear short skirts. There isn’t even a male equivalent of that sort of formal-yet-sexual attire because it’s so unimaginable that male sales reps would be demeaned in that way.
- thu2111 7y agoYou know a lot of women find a sharply dressed man much more attractive than the same man in a hoodie, right? People seem to be getting upset here because they perceive a "short but formal" skirt as somehow sexualised or demeaning to women, whilst being asked to wear a suit isn't for men. But why do you think so many men wear suits in non-business settings? It's because women like it.
- elil17 7y agoYes, I myself find well dressed men more attractive than men in hoodies. But there’s a difference between dressing in a way that’s attractive and dressing in a way that’s sexualized. Being in a short skirt feels a lot more like being in a speedo than being in a suit.
- gremlinsinc 7y agoYou know a lot of women have self-image issues about their legs right? Maybe they don't like to show them, or have a scar? Maybe they are bio-female but identify as a man, and would rather dress as a man, or they're non-binary and go back/forth but always dress up in Tuxedo instead of Dresses, or pant-suits... All of which can be business professional. They could've just worded it - dress like you're going to the Academy Awards and leave it like that.
- GrayTextIsTruth 7y ago> it is common practice for male executives to have female subordinates take responsibility when things go wrong I’m gonna go out in a limb here and say it’s common for any executive to pass the buck to any subordinate. It’s human nature to not want blame.
- xtian 7y ago> It’s human nature to not want blame. That’s not human nature, it’s a pathological, immature state of mind.
- GrayTextIsTruth 7y ago>immature state Human nature IS an immature state. It’s our uncivilized base instinct. So yes.
- xtian 7y agoThere’s really no indication that civilization is in any way correlated with personal maturity.
- azangru 7y ago> it’s a pathological, immature state of mind The word "pathological", presumably, means "deviating from the normal". The word "normal", in its turn, has two distinct meanings: one that is about what is desirable, the other is about what is common. On these grounds, and according to the second meaning of the word "normal", I would argue that fear is not pathological, nor is the desire to escape blame. It's quite normal. Whether some people can control this desire is the question.
- xtian 7y agoThat’s not what pathological means at all…
- commandlinefan 7y ago> it’s a pathological, immature state of mind. So, exactly the state of mind that leads one to become a business executive than?
- ackshually 7y agoThat's... not what the source says at all. Very aggressive editorialising for rage clicks.
- Pfhreak 7y agoIt literally is? They are asking the women to wear short dresses and heels. Because the company is trying to step it up for an awards ceremony. What part is editorialized?
- golergka 7y agoThe part where both sexes are asked to "step it up" to the same level of "dressing up", which is usually considered appropriate and expected in this kind of events anyway. This dress code description is literally what most people would imagine when told "award ceremony attire". But the headline read as if women were singled out and unnecessary sexualized.
- Pfhreak 7y agoThey aren't asked to dress "to the same level", this is exactly the concern people have.
- unishark 7y agoOne could argue they are clumsily trying to ask for the same level of dress. At least in context, which is the problem with the quote. They describe it in a salacious way which leaves no room for argument.
- elil17 7y agoThe source literally tells women to wear short dresses? How is that aggressive editorializing?
- derision 7y agoBecause it implies that only women were given a suggested dress code when in reality both sexes were given a suggestion. Outrage culture is out of control. People are too damn sensitive
- newnewpdro 7y agoAt the relevant companies I've worked this didn't need to be explicitly told to the sales people. The monetary incentives put in place already had all the saleswomen attending events dolled up to the max, because it directly affected their bottom line in a substantial way.
- meztez 7y agoAnd men told to wear blazer/sport coat, slacks, suit and 'step it up'. I don't see malice in the statement, it is just poorly worded.
- happytoexplain 7y agoIt's hard to believe you think that asking a man to wear a suit and asking a woman to wear heels and a short dress are comparable in terms of respect.
- wvlia5 7y agoA construction worker has to wear dirty clothes. A stripper, no clothes. A clown, ridiculous clothes. Different positions require different clothing. If you don't like your job, be it for clothing or what have you, you can quit.
- dominotw 7y agothey are the same position though. thats the point.
- nkrisc 7y agoThe funny thing about the examples you gave is that whether a man or woman, the clothing is the same. You're not making the point I think you're trying to make. A male and female construction worker both wear dirty clothes and a hard hat. A male and female stripper both wear no clothes. A male and female clown both wear ridiculous clothes. Whereas apparently male salesmen should be wearing short skirts and high heels? Or only women? That's the problem.
- wvlia5 7y agoHigh heels and skirt for females and suit and tie for males is what's considered elegant in traditional western fashion. It could also be pink hats for men and and yellow umbrellas for women. Or white clothes for the elderly and brown clothes for the young. Or any other arbitrary rule. Besides, suppose I have a shop and I discovered I sell more if I make men dress ridiculous, women dress erotic and elderly dress funny. So I require a dress code according to age/sex in order to optimize sales. What's the problem? Don't take the job if you don't want to
- bluesign 7y agoThis is the dress code, if you google cocktail casual, it is short dress + hills. Also stepping up for both men and women, from business casual to cocktail casual
- happytoexplain 7y agoWhat's the relevance of their having used the term correctly?
- bluesign 7y agoCause some events have dress code which is applying to everyone not only women. And it is totally accepted standard for host to set this dress code. I dont see nothing wrong here
- CrazyStat 7y agoI googled cocktail casual and I got everything from nice jeans to calf-length (midi) and even longer dresses.
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- stringyham 7y agoMost of (not all) my results are above the knee skirts.
- placer 7y agoAccording to reference.com, “cocktail casual” is not formally defined: “Traditional cocktail attire usually consists of knee length dresses for women, dark suits with a tie for men and fancy shoes for both. Cocktail casual, however, [...] has not yet been concretely defined. It means different things to different people, so partygoers who know the host well should feel free to ask for more specific instructions.” Knee-length dresses (i.e. “short dresses”) seem to reasonably fall under the definition of “cocktail casual”. For example: https://www.clbxg.com/Cocktail-Casual/ https://www.clbxg.com/Cocktail-Casual/
- deweller 7y agoHeadline: "Told to wear short skirts..." Actual email: "We ask that you wear...short but somewhat formal dress and heels"
- krapp 7y agoThe issue here is not whether a skirt is a dress, but the implications behind the qualifier "short," which are the same both for skirts and dresses, notwithstanding that a "short but somewhat formal dress" and a "short skirt" are functionally the same.
- QUCLvAdF0L 7y agoI think the implications are "don't wear a gown" and "wear a plain (this is a business event, not a social one) knee-high dress," since this describes the vast majority of dresses that turn up when I search for "cocktail casual." Anything above thigh-high would indeed be short, but hardly formal.
- gremlinsinc 7y agoAnd if the person is transitioning f->m or is non-binary and is offended by the requirement that they dress in a dress at all? Maybe they'd be more comfortable in a tuxedo, or a pant-suit. Maybe they have a scar on their leg and they're self-conscious about and gives them trauma the thought of showing off their legs...
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