4 ms·

These are all subscription services which are not covered on any car. In my case (not a tesla): software updates are only installed iff there is a recall notic

by consp 7y ago

These are all subscription services which are not covered on any car. In my case (not a tesla): software updates are only installed iff there is a recall notice. One time they installed an update because they had to wait anyways but that was not guaranteed and a service from the mechanic. Most internet uses in cars (if not all) are bound the a person, not a car. Selling it most likely voids that subscription. In my case the uses are free for 5 years for the first buyer and a paid subscription afterwards. Most likely tesla does something similar. Supercharging: See internet. Though I see plenty of them advertised with it. Maybe this is different in the EU. Features (as in, bought features in feature packs or options) on the other hand are something of value (even if only software) added to the car and cannot be taken away without compensation or reimbursement. Unless you had a subscription but that is not the case in this instance.

Joe-Z 7y ago
But they still sell the car for a whole lot of money. The more honest approach would be to only offer rental/subscription cars, if essential features such as charging your friggin electric car can't even be guaranteed after purchasing the damn thing. Using an apologetic tone for the scummy and exploitative business tactics employed by these companies is exactly why people like GP don't have faith that "...the modern moral system of the United States will provide sufficient protection..." anymore.
- ProZsolt 7y ago
  They don't remove charging. They remove the ability to charge your car for free. I completely understand that. Think about it. Somebody could buy a Tesla charger circuit, install it to another car, and get free charging for life. The same happened with 3G enabled Kindles.
  - Joe-Z 7y ago
    Okay, the point about free charging is fair, I didn't know that. But as far as I understand Tesla Superchargers are so superior to conventional charging in terms of speed that not having them available is a huge drawback to a Tesla owner. Maybe I'm wrong on this as well. >Somebody could buy a Tesla charger circuit, install it to another car, and get free charging for life. The same happened with 3G enabled Kindles. That sounds like the way it's supposed to be. It's how cars have been handled for decades and the tinkering and experimenting I'm sure lead a whole lot of people to find fulfilling interests, hobbies, maybe even carreers. It's funny, on the one hand companies seem to have no interest in funding the education of their employees anymore but on the other they also want to completely control access to their tech and how it's used. EDIT: Made the same mistake again. Of course I don't advocate for people just mooching off of Tesla's superchargers, but the ability to be able to do with my property as I please.
    - ProZsolt 7y ago
      I'm all about "you buy it you own it" and rights to repair. I wouldn't make a fuss if somebody unlocked the autopilot or the full capacity of their battery (yes, that's a software lock too). You don't own the supercharge network it's an external service.
    - MarioMan 7y ago
      >But as far as I understand Tesla Superchargers are so superior to conventional charging in terms of speed that not having them available is a huge drawback to a Tesla owner. That's highly dependent on your use-case. For the average driver, you install and use a level 2 charger at home every night and wake up to a full battery. Superchargers typically only come into play on long road trips, and you can still pay to use them outside of the complimentary charging they provide for new sales.
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    > Somebody could buy a Tesla charger circuit, install it to another car, and get free charging for life. Who owns that Tesla charger circuit? Somebody paid $5000 for free supercharging for life, and presumably the "key" or whatever is loaded onto something. The thing is: Tesla wants to be a scummy company and remotely take away that key from its users upon sale of the vehicle. Is not "free supercharging for life" implied to be tied to the car (or more specifically, the car's charging circuit)?? If it is tied to the car itself, then the "key" should be tied to some component that "defines" the car, like maybe the motors or the battery pack. The software can check to see if its still connected to the same battery-pack token or whatever if you really want to verify things (with logic used every 10 years whenever battery packs are replaced). ----- If Tesla wants both, they can have both with proper engineering effort. However, they're being lazy if they are just cutting off users without any recourse.
    - emiliobumachar 7y ago
      Very good point, I didn't know there was a supercharging line item.
    - ProZsolt 7y ago
      I understand your point, but they talking about salvaged cars. Usually, they are built from multiple cars. If you cut two teslas in half. One has autopilot one has free charging. Then you make a two cars from one part of each car. What features should get the new cars? If the key tied to the charging circuit. Would it be fair to pay that extra $5000 if the charging circuit fails and you have to buy a new one? And if you can transfer that, what happens when somebody fixes the old one? What I want to point out that "for life" services shouldn't be tied to complex things.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - Hamuko 7y ago
    Nope, they have definitely removed supercharging entirely from salvaged cars. https://youtu.be/okLgtYgnd7A https://youtu.be/okLgtYgnd7A
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
morganvachon 7y ago
I agree that these are all subscription services that are per-user and not per-vehicle, but there comes a point where such subscription services are vital to basic operation of the vehicle. Imagine for a moment that one has to have a subscription for a gasoline-powered car to enable pumps at gas stations. Without the subscription, the driver would be forced to buy fuel from stations not affiliated with the subscription service, likely at a much higher charge or more difficult transaction. At the extreme of this example, one would have to carry gas cans with them to fill at these non-sanctioned pumps and later fill their car from the cans, because the non-subscription pumps are forced to use a different size nozzle that doesn't fit the car. This sounds extreme, but it's the direction we are going with electric cars and and manufacturer-controlled and locked down vehicle systems. I am 100% on board with electric vehicles (I've gone as far as planning out a gas to electric conversion for an older truck), but not at the expense of true ownership of one's vehicle. If Tesla wants to put their brand image above and beyond my complete ownership of a vehicle I purchased outright, I simply won't ever own a Tesla even if they become less expensive than the non-electric equivalent.
overgard 7y ago
Thats the situation, but are you really ok with that? And if so, why?

by consp 7y ago

Joe-Z 7y ago

But they still sell the car for a whole lot of money. The more honest approach would be to only offer rental/subscription cars, if essential features such as charging your friggin electric car can't even be guaranteed after purchasing the damn thing. Using an apologetic tone for the scummy and exploitative business tactics employed by these companies is exactly why people like GP don't have faith that "...the modern moral system of the United States will provide sufficient protection..." anymore.

ProZsolt 7y ago
They don't remove charging. They remove the ability to charge your car for free. I completely understand that. Think about it. Somebody could buy a Tesla charger circuit, install it to another car, and get free charging for life. The same happened with 3G enabled Kindles.
- Joe-Z 7y ago
  Okay, the point about free charging is fair, I didn't know that. But as far as I understand Tesla Superchargers are so superior to conventional charging in terms of speed that not having them available is a huge drawback to a Tesla owner. Maybe I'm wrong on this as well. >Somebody could buy a Tesla charger circuit, install it to another car, and get free charging for life. The same happened with 3G enabled Kindles. That sounds like the way it's supposed to be. It's how cars have been handled for decades and the tinkering and experimenting I'm sure lead a whole lot of people to find fulfilling interests, hobbies, maybe even carreers. It's funny, on the one hand companies seem to have no interest in funding the education of their employees anymore but on the other they also want to completely control access to their tech and how it's used. EDIT: Made the same mistake again. Of course I don't advocate for people just mooching off of Tesla's superchargers, but the ability to be able to do with my property as I please.
  - ProZsolt 7y ago
    I'm all about "you buy it you own it" and rights to repair. I wouldn't make a fuss if somebody unlocked the autopilot or the full capacity of their battery (yes, that's a software lock too). You don't own the supercharge network it's an external service.
  - MarioMan 7y ago
    >But as far as I understand Tesla Superchargers are so superior to conventional charging in terms of speed that not having them available is a huge drawback to a Tesla owner. That's highly dependent on your use-case. For the average driver, you install and use a level 2 charger at home every night and wake up to a full battery. Superchargers typically only come into play on long road trips, and you can still pay to use them outside of the complimentary charging they provide for new sales.
- dragontamer 7y ago
  > Somebody could buy a Tesla charger circuit, install it to another car, and get free charging for life. Who owns that Tesla charger circuit? Somebody paid $5000 for free supercharging for life, and presumably the "key" or whatever is loaded onto something. The thing is: Tesla wants to be a scummy company and remotely take away that key from its users upon sale of the vehicle. Is not "free supercharging for life" implied to be tied to the car (or more specifically, the car's charging circuit)?? If it is tied to the car itself, then the "key" should be tied to some component that "defines" the car, like maybe the motors or the battery pack. The software can check to see if its still connected to the same battery-pack token or whatever if you really want to verify things (with logic used every 10 years whenever battery packs are replaced). ----- If Tesla wants both, they can have both with proper engineering effort. However, they're being lazy if they are just cutting off users without any recourse.
  - emiliobumachar 7y ago
    Very good point, I didn't know there was a supercharging line item.
  - ProZsolt 7y ago
    I understand your point, but they talking about salvaged cars. Usually, they are built from multiple cars. If you cut two teslas in half. One has autopilot one has free charging. Then you make a two cars from one part of each car. What features should get the new cars? If the key tied to the charging circuit. Would it be fair to pay that extra $5000 if the charging circuit fails and you have to buy a new one? And if you can transfer that, what happens when somebody fixes the old one? What I want to point out that "for life" services shouldn't be tied to complex things.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- Hamuko 7y ago
  Nope, they have definitely removed supercharging entirely from salvaged cars. https://youtu.be/okLgtYgnd7A https://youtu.be/okLgtYgnd7A
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

morganvachon 7y ago

I agree that these are all subscription services that are per-user and not per-vehicle, but there comes a point where such subscription services are vital to basic operation of the vehicle. Imagine for a moment that one has to have a subscription for a gasoline-powered car to enable pumps at gas stations. Without the subscription, the driver would be forced to buy fuel from stations not affiliated with the subscription service, likely at a much higher charge or more difficult transaction. At the extreme of this example, one would have to carry gas cans with them to fill at these non-sanctioned pumps and later fill their car from the cans, because the non-subscription pumps are forced to use a different size nozzle that doesn't fit the car. This sounds extreme, but it's the direction we are going with electric cars and and manufacturer-controlled and locked down vehicle systems. I am 100% on board with electric vehicles (I've gone as far as planning out a gas to electric conversion for an older truck), but not at the expense of true ownership of one's vehicle. If Tesla wants to put their brand image above and beyond my complete ownership of a vehicle I purchased outright, I simply won't ever own a Tesla even if they become less expensive than the non-electric equivalent.

overgard 7y ago

Thats the situation, but are you really ok with that? And if so, why?