4 ms·

Your argument is flawed with a very opinionative starting point, which is that Angular wouldn't provide a solid foundation. This is, at the very best, very deb

by ghego1 7y ago

Your argument is flawed with a very opinionative starting point, which is that Angular wouldn't provide a solid foundation. This is, at the very best, very debatable. In my experience, it's the very opposite. Angular gives you very solid foundations as it's a proper framework that ships everything you need to build scalable apps. So you start from something small, and as you grow you know you can do so without rethinking the foundations of the app, as they are provided by the framework, which is Google guys, which means most likely people with a lot more experience than the average front end dev. On the contrary, react leaves basic choices (the bricks you mentioned) to the user. While freedom can be good, it also implies that errors will be made, so you are a lot more likely to build on shaky foundations.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
The real difference between the two frameworks boils down to developer happiness. In Angular, all of the choices are made for you. For some, the lack of autonomy and agency when writing Angular applications makes those developers sad. It's hard to take pride and ownership in your work when 90% of everything has been decided for you, and if you try to eject from the "Angular" way of doing this, you end up just writing bad Angular code. Choice to pick the best of breed solution to each smaller problem within the context of building an enterprise grade web application is at the heart of React. I get to look at all published routers and choose the one with the most intuitive API to me: I get to look at bundle sizes, and consider trade-offs.
- tashoecraft 7y ago
  This is the biggest “meme” about angular and it’s so unbelievable wrong. It shows that you haven’t used the framework if you think all the choices are made for you. Instead of spending all my time analyzing different open source packages for every single thing you do, you just have access to a first class supported solution. IMO, lots of the react ecosystem is built on engineers trying to show off. They get fancy coming up with a solution, writing a unique library, and there’s no reason for this. Everyone likes to think their code is unique and special and great, but it’s not. We don’t need to reinvent the wheel all the time. So many of these apps are going to need to be rewritten in a couple years because of how poorly architected they are. That’s not a problem of react, but it’s a problem of react devs who take a small view library then build a framework on top of it.
  - JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
    Unlike most people, I've written both Angular and React extensively: I've shipped both Angular and React web applications in enterprise settings. I wouldn't characterize my time in React spent "all day comparing open source packages" -- if that's what you think web application development on React looks like on a day-to-day basis, you haven't done much on it. To be clear, I do not intend to speak negatively about Angular. Some people love the provided structure. It's also not for some other people. This is okay. Different things make different developers happy. I wasn't generally describing all people's sentiment: that would be insane, both frameworks have huge backing. If you'd like to understand more about how some people view the framework as inflexible, and you're open to that perspective, I'm glad to shine some light on it.
    - tashoecraft 7y ago
      I was mostly responding to this line “ It's hard to take pride and ownership in your work when 90% of everything has been decided for you,” Which in my kind is just a weird thing to say and seemed to imply a general statement. A lot of comments state angular is inflexible and opinionated, but come from people who haven’t used the framework. They think your forced to do a lot of things where angular gives you choice. I haven’t done much react development, but my significant other has and multiple members of my team have as well, and I’ve heard them discuss how when you need to find a package to pull in it’s a decision that involves searching and weighing the pros and cons much more then for angular. I don’t hate react at all and totally understand its pros and how I think it’s a net positive on the web development landscape. It’s more that this site is extremely react focused and biased, and the US dev community is also that way. So angular gets called out as being something stupid to use that’s cumbersome, slow and big, but that’s just simply not the case. Example of angular app being smaller and faster then comparable react: https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/a-real-world-comparison-of-front-end-frameworks-with-benchmarks-2018-update-e5760fb4a962/ https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/a-real-world-comparison-of.... I know these comparisons are silly so I’m not putting much thought into it, just one anecdote. Both are great libraries/frameworks with great ecosystem of developers, we all need to stop flaming each other and see the progress each community is making. It’s not a winner take all type deal, there’s plenty of room for both.
kls 7y ago
They are not people with more experience you are appealing to authority. The cold hard truth is that Angular got it so wrong the first go around that they had to completely rewrite the framework. The very reason was that a lot of the early guys where just out of school and built a framework on theory. If you contrast this with React, guys in the trenched trying to build applications at scale for FB, they where built with totally different mindsets. The FB guys understood the render loops that has been a pattern in UI since the desktop days and has stuck around because it works. To this day two way data binding and template based logic are both a dumpster fire, that cause unmaintainable code and side effects that cause debugging to be more difficult. This is just a bad idea: https://angular.io/guide/template-syntax https://angular.io/guide/template-syntax Without writing the tooling to debug it, to this day there is not said tooling.
- IggleSniggle 7y ago
  ...well...on THIS day there is said tooling. In Angular 9.
  - kls 7y ago
    This is the most comprehensive document I can find on debugging in 9 and I still do not see a way to set a breakpoint in say a loop declared in a template. I may be missing something as I have not worked on an Angular project in probably 6 months. But I don't see template debugging I see being able to get reference to a component and then manipulate said component via dev tools. https://juristr.com/blog/2019/09/debugging-angular-ivy-console/ https://juristr.com/blog/2019/09/debugging-angular-ivy-conso...

by ghego1 7y ago

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago

The real difference between the two frameworks boils down to developer happiness. In Angular, all of the choices are made for you. For some, the lack of autonomy and agency when writing Angular applications makes those developers sad. It's hard to take pride and ownership in your work when 90% of everything has been decided for you, and if you try to eject from the "Angular" way of doing this, you end up just writing bad Angular code. Choice to pick the best of breed solution to each smaller problem within the context of building an enterprise grade web application is at the heart of React. I get to look at all published routers and choose the one with the most intuitive API to me: I get to look at bundle sizes, and consider trade-offs.

tashoecraft 7y ago
This is the biggest “meme” about angular and it’s so unbelievable wrong. It shows that you haven’t used the framework if you think all the choices are made for you. Instead of spending all my time analyzing different open source packages for every single thing you do, you just have access to a first class supported solution. IMO, lots of the react ecosystem is built on engineers trying to show off. They get fancy coming up with a solution, writing a unique library, and there’s no reason for this. Everyone likes to think their code is unique and special and great, but it’s not. We don’t need to reinvent the wheel all the time. So many of these apps are going to need to be rewritten in a couple years because of how poorly architected they are. That’s not a problem of react, but it’s a problem of react devs who take a small view library then build a framework on top of it.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  Unlike most people, I've written both Angular and React extensively: I've shipped both Angular and React web applications in enterprise settings. I wouldn't characterize my time in React spent "all day comparing open source packages" -- if that's what you think web application development on React looks like on a day-to-day basis, you haven't done much on it. To be clear, I do not intend to speak negatively about Angular. Some people love the provided structure. It's also not for some other people. This is okay. Different things make different developers happy. I wasn't generally describing all people's sentiment: that would be insane, both frameworks have huge backing. If you'd like to understand more about how some people view the framework as inflexible, and you're open to that perspective, I'm glad to shine some light on it.
  - tashoecraft 7y ago
    I was mostly responding to this line “ It's hard to take pride and ownership in your work when 90% of everything has been decided for you,” Which in my kind is just a weird thing to say and seemed to imply a general statement. A lot of comments state angular is inflexible and opinionated, but come from people who haven’t used the framework. They think your forced to do a lot of things where angular gives you choice. I haven’t done much react development, but my significant other has and multiple members of my team have as well, and I’ve heard them discuss how when you need to find a package to pull in it’s a decision that involves searching and weighing the pros and cons much more then for angular. I don’t hate react at all and totally understand its pros and how I think it’s a net positive on the web development landscape. It’s more that this site is extremely react focused and biased, and the US dev community is also that way. So angular gets called out as being something stupid to use that’s cumbersome, slow and big, but that’s just simply not the case. Example of angular app being smaller and faster then comparable react: https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/a-real-world-comparison-of-front-end-frameworks-with-benchmarks-2018-update-e5760fb4a962/ https://www.freecodecamp.org/news/a-real-world-comparison-of.... I know these comparisons are silly so I’m not putting much thought into it, just one anecdote. Both are great libraries/frameworks with great ecosystem of developers, we all need to stop flaming each other and see the progress each community is making. It’s not a winner take all type deal, there’s plenty of room for both.

kls 7y ago

They are not people with more experience you are appealing to authority. The cold hard truth is that Angular got it so wrong the first go around that they had to completely rewrite the framework. The very reason was that a lot of the early guys where just out of school and built a framework on theory. If you contrast this with React, guys in the trenched trying to build applications at scale for FB, they where built with totally different mindsets. The FB guys understood the render loops that has been a pattern in UI since the desktop days and has stuck around because it works. To this day two way data binding and template based logic are both a dumpster fire, that cause unmaintainable code and side effects that cause debugging to be more difficult. This is just a bad idea: https://angular.io/guide/template-syntax https://angular.io/guide/template-syntax Without writing the tooling to debug it, to this day there is not said tooling.

IggleSniggle 7y ago
...well...on THIS day there is said tooling. In Angular 9.
- kls 7y ago
  This is the most comprehensive document I can find on debugging in 9 and I still do not see a way to set a breakpoint in say a loop declared in a template. I may be missing something as I have not worked on an Angular project in probably 6 months. But I don't see template debugging I see being able to get reference to a component and then manipulate said component via dev tools. https://juristr.com/blog/2019/09/debugging-angular-ivy-console/ https://juristr.com/blog/2019/09/debugging-angular-ivy-conso...