4 ms·

Maybe the disdain comes from the fact that people don’t like getting a whole house (like angular) built on shaky grounds, but prefer a clean basic foundation (l

Maybe the disdain comes from the fact that people don’t like getting a whole house (like angular) built on shaky grounds, but prefer a clean basic foundation (like react) where they can lay whatever bricks they like on top (routing, data management). It feels cleaner and more solid.

Cthulhu_ 7y ago
"Built on shaky grounds" needs a citation and additional explanation. I mean I hear what you're saying, but Angular is an opinionated framework whereas React is not, and many people end up reinventing the wheel (or an application framework) in the process. There is value in being opinionated.
- crubier 7y ago
  The churn between angular versions, stemming from the limitations and inconsistencies of two way data bindings and others, are what I mean by «shaky grounds». Yes there is value in being opinionated, but it is less risky to decorrelate the opinion from the foundation. There are opinionated frameworks built on top of react and it is very nice like this. But react itself should not be opinionated.
  - tashoecraft 7y ago
    There is so little churn between angular versions. Angular 1-2 was a big change and they should have renamed the framework. But you have to understand how angular 1 came into existence. It wasn’t planned to be used by everyone, it was just solving some problems experienced by a couple devs and it spread like wild fire. The team that eventually took it over and grew around it recognized it had some problems scaling and being used for large applications. They knew they couldn’t just change angular 1 to be what it needs to be, so they made a big switch. They put in patterns that benefit large apps, typescript, observables, the choice of two way binding or one way binding, better DI system. Everyone says react isn’t opinionated, and for developing an enterprise app that just sounds like a nightmare.
  - IggleSniggle 7y ago
    I'm not sure what churn you are talking about, unless you mean the Angular 1 - Angular 2+ split? ng update is ridiculously easy, and the automatic code rewriting is generally sensible and easy to follow. When there are breaking changes, Angular takes care of the modifications for you. Generally I've felt like those changes resulted in a better expressed codebase (eg RxJS syntax improved massively from 5 to 6, lazy loaded routes are expressed with arrow functions now, etc). I assumed the React community was also migrating versions with codemods, but maybe React does not introduce any breaking changes?
ghego1 7y ago
Your argument is flawed with a very opinionative starting point, which is that Angular wouldn't provide a solid foundation. This is, at the very best, very debatable. In my experience, it's the very opposite. Angular gives you very solid foundations as it's a proper framework that ships everything you need to build scalable apps. So you start from something small, and as you grow you know you can do so without rethinking the foundations of the app, as they are provided by the framework, which is Google guys, which means most likely people with a lot more experience than the average front end dev. On the contrary, react leaves basic choices (the bricks you mentioned) to the user. While freedom can be good, it also implies that errors will be made, so you are a lot more likely to build on shaky foundations.
- JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
  The real difference between the two frameworks boils down to developer happiness. In Angular, all of the choices are made for you. For some, the lack of autonomy and agency when writing Angular applications makes those developers sad. It's hard to take pride and ownership in your work when 90% of everything has been decided for you, and if you try to eject from the "Angular" way of doing this, you end up just writing bad Angular code. Choice to pick the best of breed solution to each smaller problem within the context of building an enterprise grade web application is at the heart of React. I get to look at all published routers and choose the one with the most intuitive API to me: I get to look at bundle sizes, and consider trade-offs.
  - tashoecraft 7y ago
    This is the biggest “meme” about angular and it’s so unbelievable wrong. It shows that you haven’t used the framework if you think all the choices are made for you. Instead of spending all my time analyzing different open source packages for every single thing you do, you just have access to a first class supported solution. IMO, lots of the react ecosystem is built on engineers trying to show off. They get fancy coming up with a solution, writing a unique library, and there’s no reason for this. Everyone likes to think their code is unique and special and great, but it’s not. We don’t need to reinvent the wheel all the time. So many of these apps are going to need to be rewritten in a couple years because of how poorly architected they are. That’s not a problem of react, but it’s a problem of react devs who take a small view library then build a framework on top of it.

Cthulhu_ 7y ago

"Built on shaky grounds" needs a citation and additional explanation. I mean I hear what you're saying, but Angular is an opinionated framework whereas React is not, and many people end up reinventing the wheel (or an application framework) in the process. There is value in being opinionated.

crubier 7y ago
The churn between angular versions, stemming from the limitations and inconsistencies of two way data bindings and others, are what I mean by «shaky grounds». Yes there is value in being opinionated, but it is less risky to decorrelate the opinion from the foundation. There are opinionated frameworks built on top of react and it is very nice like this. But react itself should not be opinionated.
- tashoecraft 7y ago
  There is so little churn between angular versions. Angular 1-2 was a big change and they should have renamed the framework. But you have to understand how angular 1 came into existence. It wasn’t planned to be used by everyone, it was just solving some problems experienced by a couple devs and it spread like wild fire. The team that eventually took it over and grew around it recognized it had some problems scaling and being used for large applications. They knew they couldn’t just change angular 1 to be what it needs to be, so they made a big switch. They put in patterns that benefit large apps, typescript, observables, the choice of two way binding or one way binding, better DI system. Everyone says react isn’t opinionated, and for developing an enterprise app that just sounds like a nightmare.
- IggleSniggle 7y ago
  I'm not sure what churn you are talking about, unless you mean the Angular 1 - Angular 2+ split? ng update is ridiculously easy, and the automatic code rewriting is generally sensible and easy to follow. When there are breaking changes, Angular takes care of the modifications for you. Generally I've felt like those changes resulted in a better expressed codebase (eg RxJS syntax improved massively from 5 to 6, lazy loaded routes are expressed with arrow functions now, etc). I assumed the React community was also migrating versions with codemods, but maybe React does not introduce any breaking changes?

ghego1 7y ago

Your argument is flawed with a very opinionative starting point, which is that Angular wouldn't provide a solid foundation. This is, at the very best, very debatable. In my experience, it's the very opposite. Angular gives you very solid foundations as it's a proper framework that ships everything you need to build scalable apps. So you start from something small, and as you grow you know you can do so without rethinking the foundations of the app, as they are provided by the framework, which is Google guys, which means most likely people with a lot more experience than the average front end dev. On the contrary, react leaves basic choices (the bricks you mentioned) to the user. While freedom can be good, it also implies that errors will be made, so you are a lot more likely to build on shaky foundations.

JMTQp8lwXL 7y ago
The real difference between the two frameworks boils down to developer happiness. In Angular, all of the choices are made for you. For some, the lack of autonomy and agency when writing Angular applications makes those developers sad. It's hard to take pride and ownership in your work when 90% of everything has been decided for you, and if you try to eject from the "Angular" way of doing this, you end up just writing bad Angular code. Choice to pick the best of breed solution to each smaller problem within the context of building an enterprise grade web application is at the heart of React. I get to look at all published routers and choose the one with the most intuitive API to me: I get to look at bundle sizes, and consider trade-offs.
- tashoecraft 7y ago
  This is the biggest “meme” about angular and it’s so unbelievable wrong. It shows that you haven’t used the framework if you think all the choices are made for you. Instead of spending all my time analyzing different open source packages for every single thing you do, you just have access to a first class supported solution. IMO, lots of the react ecosystem is built on engineers trying to show off. They get fancy coming up with a solution, writing a unique library, and there’s no reason for this. Everyone likes to think their code is unique and special and great, but it’s not. We don’t need to reinvent the wheel all the time. So many of these apps are going to need to be rewritten in a couple years because of how poorly architected they are. That’s not a problem of react, but it’s a problem of react devs who take a small view library then build a framework on top of it.