4 ms·

those treaties are despicable. to receive US aid you have to essentially give carte blanche to US corporations to raid and rape your country and its people as

by ptah 7y ago

those treaties are despicable. to receive US aid you have to essentially give carte blanche to US corporations to raid and rape your country and its people as they please. EDIT: essentially the hague court is enforcing the heinous practice of forcing the prioritization of corporate profits over country's sovereignty, and the wellbeing of its citizenry and envrionment

darawk 7y ago
It seems like you are confusing some things. The Hague is enforcing international law - which is its purpose. The treaties were entered into by fully competent governments. These aren't uneducated minors being pressured into a deal they don't understand. They're national governments.
- Haga 7y ago
  Bribed and bullied like minors.
- ptah 7y ago
  > pressured into a deal they don't understand you would be surprised as to how many people would assume that they would still be able to hold a corporation to account if they completely make a country unlivable and kill citizens. these treaties are morally wrong and make it legal for corporations to destroy the habitibility of a piece of land and kill its inhabitants if it is profitable to them
  - darawk 7y ago
    > you would be surprised as to how many people would assume that they would still be able to hold a corporation to account if they completely make a country unlivable and kill citizens. these treaties are morally wrong and make it legal for corporations to destroy the habitibility of a piece of land and kill its inhabitants if it is profitable to them I'm not aware of any provisions in these treaties that permit killing.
    - ptah 7y ago
      governments are not allowed to do anything that lowers corporate profits under these treaties. in this specific case the pollution was deadly and yet the treaty protects chevron's interest over those of the citizens and endangers lives
      - PeterisP 7y ago
        Well, the national government representing these citizens intentionally chose that attracting investment (which presumably helps their citizens in the long run) is more important to their country than protecting the health of their population, and as the sovereign, they can make that choice on behalf of their citizens. It may be a stupid or misguided or evil choice, but that's their choice to make. Also, for many third world countries it does seem quite clear that simply setting the labor law and environmental law protections equal to first world standards would be a stupid policy harmful to their citizens; simple poverty kills and harms much more people in a much more direct way, and becoming a place for outsourcing is a net benefit to their population in the end; proper protection is a luxury that their society can't (yet) afford because they have to fulfil their core needs first even if that costs some lives due to pollution or exploitative labor. At some point they'll want to toughen up these restrictions (as China is doing now), but it's not because the lax restrictions were wrong or a regrettable mistake, it's only because the conditions have changed, they're richer, and now they can afford to be more picky about these issues. It's a tough choice to make this balance well, but it's not something that someone else can decide for them, the national governments are the ones that should be making this choice - unless they're totalitarian dictatorships, in which case the people should be given the say, but they won't without a potentially bloody coup.
        ptah 7y ago
        these treaties are boilerplate take it or leave it. third world countries mostly don't have the option to vary these terms
        PeterisP 7y ago
- socialdemocrat 7y ago
  > These aren't uneducated minors being pressured into a deal they don't understand. They're national governments. I think you are being rather naive about this. A country is not a person. Individuals can be in charge with entirely different agenda's than what is the interest of the country. Corruptible officials who let themselves get bought by powerful corporations to gain personal wealth. Not for the benefit of their own country. When the citizens realize they have been screwed over by a corrupt leader, who gained power in illegal or dubious means, should they have no recourse? History is full of stories about these kinds of unequal deals. It is how colonialism started. Powerful western enterprises pressured weaker nations into unfavorable conditions. It happens everywhere. As a Norwegian I know very well how powerful American oil companies tried to screw us over big time when found oil in the North Sea. What saved Norway was in fact that we had an extremely anti-capitalist government full of socialists which challenged them on everything. We also benefitted from having low levels of corruption. There was no government official these companies could buy to screw us over. That is the problem of corruption. It makes you very vulnerable.
rayiner 7y ago
You can't have your cake and eat it to, even if you're a developing country. Companies don't invest in places like Ecuador because they worry they'll be shaken down if they do. In order to get companies like Chevron to invest in their country, countries like Ecuador consent to these international arbitration agreements. If they don't like the terms, they should stop doing that.

by ptah 7y ago

darawk 7y ago

It seems like you are confusing some things. The Hague is enforcing international law - which is its purpose. The treaties were entered into by fully competent governments. These aren't uneducated minors being pressured into a deal they don't understand. They're national governments.

Haga 7y ago
Bribed and bullied like minors.
ptah 7y ago
> pressured into a deal they don't understand you would be surprised as to how many people would assume that they would still be able to hold a corporation to account if they completely make a country unlivable and kill citizens. these treaties are morally wrong and make it legal for corporations to destroy the habitibility of a piece of land and kill its inhabitants if it is profitable to them
- darawk 7y ago
  > you would be surprised as to how many people would assume that they would still be able to hold a corporation to account if they completely make a country unlivable and kill citizens. these treaties are morally wrong and make it legal for corporations to destroy the habitibility of a piece of land and kill its inhabitants if it is profitable to them I'm not aware of any provisions in these treaties that permit killing.
  - ptah 7y ago
    governments are not allowed to do anything that lowers corporate profits under these treaties. in this specific case the pollution was deadly and yet the treaty protects chevron's interest over those of the citizens and endangers lives
    - PeterisP 7y ago
      Well, the national government representing these citizens intentionally chose that attracting investment (which presumably helps their citizens in the long run) is more important to their country than protecting the health of their population, and as the sovereign, they can make that choice on behalf of their citizens. It may be a stupid or misguided or evil choice, but that's their choice to make. Also, for many third world countries it does seem quite clear that simply setting the labor law and environmental law protections equal to first world standards would be a stupid policy harmful to their citizens; simple poverty kills and harms much more people in a much more direct way, and becoming a place for outsourcing is a net benefit to their population in the end; proper protection is a luxury that their society can't (yet) afford because they have to fulfil their core needs first even if that costs some lives due to pollution or exploitative labor. At some point they'll want to toughen up these restrictions (as China is doing now), but it's not because the lax restrictions were wrong or a regrettable mistake, it's only because the conditions have changed, they're richer, and now they can afford to be more picky about these issues. It's a tough choice to make this balance well, but it's not something that someone else can decide for them, the national governments are the ones that should be making this choice - unless they're totalitarian dictatorships, in which case the people should be given the say, but they won't without a potentially bloody coup.
      - ptah 7y ago
        these treaties are boilerplate take it or leave it. third world countries mostly don't have the option to vary these terms
        PeterisP 7y ago
socialdemocrat 7y ago
> These aren't uneducated minors being pressured into a deal they don't understand. They're national governments. I think you are being rather naive about this. A country is not a person. Individuals can be in charge with entirely different agenda's than what is the interest of the country. Corruptible officials who let themselves get bought by powerful corporations to gain personal wealth. Not for the benefit of their own country. When the citizens realize they have been screwed over by a corrupt leader, who gained power in illegal or dubious means, should they have no recourse? History is full of stories about these kinds of unequal deals. It is how colonialism started. Powerful western enterprises pressured weaker nations into unfavorable conditions. It happens everywhere. As a Norwegian I know very well how powerful American oil companies tried to screw us over big time when found oil in the North Sea. What saved Norway was in fact that we had an extremely anti-capitalist government full of socialists which challenged them on everything. We also benefitted from having low levels of corruption. There was no government official these companies could buy to screw us over. That is the problem of corruption. It makes you very vulnerable.

rayiner 7y ago

You can't have your cake and eat it to, even if you're a developing country. Companies don't invest in places like Ecuador because they worry they'll be shaken down if they do. In order to get companies like Chevron to invest in their country, countries like Ecuador consent to these international arbitration agreements. If they don't like the terms, they should stop doing that.