5 ms·

If I have a computer with a big pile of really expensive software on it licensed to me, and I sell you that piece of hardware, without formatting the disks, doe

If I have a computer with a big pile of really expensive software on it licensed to me, and I sell you that piece of hardware, without formatting the disks, does that mean I’ve sold you those licenses? I think any reasonable take here is “no, you did not”. A Tesla is a computer that just happens to have wheels. In this case, it sounds like someone bought a second hand computer that happened to have an unlicensed installation of some software, and the license was revoked. Perhaps the car was ex-demo before the owner who auctioned it off did so. Now, there’s a separate question around the communications over this, and the dealer/end customer being mis-sold, and they’ve stumbled there, but this is more of a gap between expectations (it’s a car!) vs reality (it’s a computer).

Nursie 7y ago
If the computer is specialised to the extent that the software is only useful on that one computer, and you have no ongoing use for the software without the computer, and perhaps you even advertised the software license as part of your sale... Hell yes you transferred that license.
brailsafe 7y ago
I think this analogy depends entirely on communication and your ability to defend what you think of as your property. Applying the reverse logic, is it theft if the person uses that software that you sold them access to? As far as I'm concerned, someone's property is what they can defend as their property. If someone has access to a license that you didn't intend to sell them, but also doesn't impair your ability to use it, then you now both have that property. Otherwise, if you clearly communicate that it's part of the deal, but then keep a backdoor in, and remove the software from the person's new computer, that's theft. The only way I'd argue that the software would remain yours after the transaction and when you forgot to exclude it, is if you maintained access to it somehow. Whether the person keeps it or not is up to their goodwill or ability to use the licenses. In the old days, if a computer came with a Photoshop license on it, it's yours.
_Microft 7y ago
Could Tesla owners really keep the FSD 'license' when selling a car and use it with their next Tesla? I have never read about anything like that. I thought the features were tied to the car, not to the owner.
mgoetzke 7y ago
it seems in this case the expensive software was never licensed to begin with. It was on the PC by accident so to speak. Its like buying a PC with an internet activated piece of software which is later deactivated remotely because the software detected it was never licensed. BUT Tesla and others in the chain should not have listed it as an extra and those are now required to make this right. This could mean accept the return of this product, or leave the feature activated
micheljansen 7y ago
That's really not how it is sold. If you want to stick with the computer metaphor, it's like Tesla sold you a computer with some paid-for firmware options enabled, tied to that device, that cannot be transferred to any other device, then pulls them post-resale. Tesla needs to pick: either it's software licensed to you as a person and therefore transferrable to another car, or it's software tied to a specific car and therefore transferrable to another person.
martin8412 7y ago
I would say this is very similar to Cisco saying that the IOS license for their switches is non-transferable. You go buy a switch on eBay, and you'll have to pay a license fee to Cisco. Mind you that this is not legal in Europe. Licenses are transferable regardless of what American corporations say.
notyourday 7y ago
Tesla may want to claim it is a computer with wheels but the state disagrees -- you don't have to register a computer but you have to register a car
overgard 7y ago
If you believe that, then Teslas have zero resale value. Unless they state that they will honor their agreements I wouldn't dream of buying one

Nursie 7y ago

If the computer is specialised to the extent that the software is only useful on that one computer, and you have no ongoing use for the software without the computer, and perhaps you even advertised the software license as part of your sale... Hell yes you transferred that license.

brailsafe 7y ago

I think this analogy depends entirely on communication and your ability to defend what you think of as your property. Applying the reverse logic, is it theft if the person uses that software that you sold them access to? As far as I'm concerned, someone's property is what they can defend as their property. If someone has access to a license that you didn't intend to sell them, but also doesn't impair your ability to use it, then you now both have that property. Otherwise, if you clearly communicate that it's part of the deal, but then keep a backdoor in, and remove the software from the person's new computer, that's theft. The only way I'd argue that the software would remain yours after the transaction and when you forgot to exclude it, is if you maintained access to it somehow. Whether the person keeps it or not is up to their goodwill or ability to use the licenses. In the old days, if a computer came with a Photoshop license on it, it's yours.

_Microft 7y ago

Could Tesla owners really keep the FSD 'license' when selling a car and use it with their next Tesla? I have never read about anything like that. I thought the features were tied to the car, not to the owner.

mgoetzke 7y ago

it seems in this case the expensive software was never licensed to begin with. It was on the PC by accident so to speak. Its like buying a PC with an internet activated piece of software which is later deactivated remotely because the software detected it was never licensed. BUT Tesla and others in the chain should not have listed it as an extra and those are now required to make this right. This could mean accept the return of this product, or leave the feature activated

micheljansen 7y ago

That's really not how it is sold. If you want to stick with the computer metaphor, it's like Tesla sold you a computer with some paid-for firmware options enabled, tied to that device, that cannot be transferred to any other device, then pulls them post-resale. Tesla needs to pick: either it's software licensed to you as a person and therefore transferrable to another car, or it's software tied to a specific car and therefore transferrable to another person.

martin8412 7y ago

I would say this is very similar to Cisco saying that the IOS license for their switches is non-transferable. You go buy a switch on eBay, and you'll have to pay a license fee to Cisco. Mind you that this is not legal in Europe. Licenses are transferable regardless of what American corporations say.

notyourday 7y ago

Tesla may want to claim it is a computer with wheels but the state disagrees -- you don't have to register a computer but you have to register a car

overgard 7y ago

If you believe that, then Teslas have zero resale value. Unless they state that they will honor their agreements I wouldn't dream of buying one