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I'm not so sure. Could a western country initiate entire city-wide quarantines at the drop of a hat? Could a western country pull sick people off the streets

I'm not so sure. Could a western country initiate entire city-wide quarantines at the drop of a hat? Could a western country pull sick people off the streets and forcibly put them into quarantine centers? Unilaterally shut down schools, factories, and transportation at a whim? Maybe. ...but, to be honest, despite their clear dishonestly about the number of infected/dying, they are also clearly taking some definitive actions to contain this.

tal8d 7y ago
The propensity for lying, in order to protect the power structure, results in a major constraint on future options - requiring more lies. It is a vicious cycle that completely obliterates any potential strong-arm advantage a single party system may have. If for no other reason: this is why you don't lie, you have no idea how badly you screw your future self. Also, and I'm looking at you World Health Organization, anyone trying to soften the blowback from lying suffers major damage to their credibility.
- beamatronic 7y ago
  The WHO fucked everyone. “No alarm” from WHO is my new “red flag”.
  - DarthGhandi 7y ago
    People who think the WHO is somehow corrupted scare me. They are easily one of the most honest and forthright global organisations around, made up of competing professionals in their field from around the globe. They would be the first to be ringing alarm bells if there was a problem. The onus is on you to prove they are being dishonest, not the other way around friendly internet commentator.
    - tal8d 7y ago
      Unlike the WHO, this friendly internet commentator hasn't appointed Robert Mugabe as a goodwill ambassador. So you'd be better served appealing to my authority, not theirs.
      - DarthGhandi 7y ago
        It was honestly a good move, with all upside and no downside, influence moves in subtle ways. The rabid internet mobs who move from one issue to the next with no concern for the bigger picture made quick work of it though. I truly wonder if these people reflect on what they did, was it in the interest of human suffering or simply petty signalling? Was nothing more than a title, much like the CEO's and Senior engineers in startups. Saying this as a code artisan. Please read the statement on the matter: https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/22-10-2017-director-general-rescinds-goodwill-ambassador-appointment https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/22-10-2017-director-gen...
        tal8d 7y ago
        And snap goes the bear trap. I was a little concerned that the parallels between their political maneuvering with Mugabe and Jinping would be too obvious, but you've clearly missed it. They have a history of this sort of behavior. > They are easily one of the most honest and forthright global organisations around, made up of competing professionals in their field from around the globe. They are political actors. You may, most charitably, say that they are pragmatic in pursuit of a great good - but there are two problems with that: loss of trust and misaligned objectives. > They would be the first to be ringing alarm bells if there was a problem. Would they? You just admitted that their motives can't be examined without considering the political dimension. This is why you shouldn't lie.
    - koheripbal 7y ago
      The implication is that they are an incompetent bureaucracy, not corrupted.
    - bmn__ 7y ago
      The WHO's director-general Tedros A. G. being in the pocket of CCP – being a conspiracy theory – is impossible to prove or disprove. However, his behaviour fits the MO of people confirmed of being nobbled, and aligns with CCP's goals of downplaying the crisis, saving face and continuing as usual, putting business before health and lives. https://www.sciencealert.com/who-tries-to-correct-wuhan-coronavirus-risk-level https://www.sciencealert.com/who-tries-to-correct-wuhan-coro... Quote from press release: "travel restrictions can cause more harm than good by hindering info-sharing and medical supply chains and harming economies" ---- If you can stomach a particularly uncharitable interpretation, watch "The WHO Belongs to Communist China": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5VGPYtbTk8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5VGPYtbTk8 Minutes 1-13 and 37-49 are relevant.
- wpskidd 7y ago
  I think your point deserves more emphasis. IF in fact 5MM inhabitants of Wuhan fled the city before the lockdown, we can be pretty sure that this was caused, at least in part, by a lack in faith from their government’s handling of the previous outbreaks. The government lied and censored and the people did not forget. This in turn triggers a diaspora at the worst possible time.
me_me_me 7y ago
Could a western country initiate 100k open plate banquet after multiple cases of virus have been detected?
himinlomax 7y ago
They demonstrably lost at the very least a whole week due to their censorship of early reports. You can debate how significant it was, but it's pretty obvious that 1. more liberal countries would typically not have lost that week and 2. swift response is essential in this kind of crisis.

tal8d 7y ago

The propensity for lying, in order to protect the power structure, results in a major constraint on future options - requiring more lies. It is a vicious cycle that completely obliterates any potential strong-arm advantage a single party system may have. If for no other reason: this is why you don't lie, you have no idea how badly you screw your future self. Also, and I'm looking at you World Health Organization, anyone trying to soften the blowback from lying suffers major damage to their credibility.

beamatronic 7y ago
The WHO fucked everyone. “No alarm” from WHO is my new “red flag”.
- DarthGhandi 7y ago
  People who think the WHO is somehow corrupted scare me. They are easily one of the most honest and forthright global organisations around, made up of competing professionals in their field from around the globe. They would be the first to be ringing alarm bells if there was a problem. The onus is on you to prove they are being dishonest, not the other way around friendly internet commentator.
  - tal8d 7y ago
    Unlike the WHO, this friendly internet commentator hasn't appointed Robert Mugabe as a goodwill ambassador. So you'd be better served appealing to my authority, not theirs.
    - DarthGhandi 7y ago
      It was honestly a good move, with all upside and no downside, influence moves in subtle ways. The rabid internet mobs who move from one issue to the next with no concern for the bigger picture made quick work of it though. I truly wonder if these people reflect on what they did, was it in the interest of human suffering or simply petty signalling? Was nothing more than a title, much like the CEO's and Senior engineers in startups. Saying this as a code artisan. Please read the statement on the matter: https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/22-10-2017-director-general-rescinds-goodwill-ambassador-appointment https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/22-10-2017-director-gen...
      - tal8d 7y ago
        And snap goes the bear trap. I was a little concerned that the parallels between their political maneuvering with Mugabe and Jinping would be too obvious, but you've clearly missed it. They have a history of this sort of behavior. > They are easily one of the most honest and forthright global organisations around, made up of competing professionals in their field from around the globe. They are political actors. You may, most charitably, say that they are pragmatic in pursuit of a great good - but there are two problems with that: loss of trust and misaligned objectives. > They would be the first to be ringing alarm bells if there was a problem. Would they? You just admitted that their motives can't be examined without considering the political dimension. This is why you shouldn't lie.
  - koheripbal 7y ago
    The implication is that they are an incompetent bureaucracy, not corrupted.
  - bmn__ 7y ago
    The WHO's director-general Tedros A. G. being in the pocket of CCP – being a conspiracy theory – is impossible to prove or disprove. However, his behaviour fits the MO of people confirmed of being nobbled, and aligns with CCP's goals of downplaying the crisis, saving face and continuing as usual, putting business before health and lives. https://www.sciencealert.com/who-tries-to-correct-wuhan-coronavirus-risk-level https://www.sciencealert.com/who-tries-to-correct-wuhan-coro... Quote from press release: "travel restrictions can cause more harm than good by hindering info-sharing and medical supply chains and harming economies" ---- If you can stomach a particularly uncharitable interpretation, watch "The WHO Belongs to Communist China": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5VGPYtbTk8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5VGPYtbTk8 Minutes 1-13 and 37-49 are relevant.
wpskidd 7y ago
I think your point deserves more emphasis. IF in fact 5MM inhabitants of Wuhan fled the city before the lockdown, we can be pretty sure that this was caused, at least in part, by a lack in faith from their government’s handling of the previous outbreaks. The government lied and censored and the people did not forget. This in turn triggers a diaspora at the worst possible time.

me_me_me 7y ago

Could a western country initiate 100k open plate banquet after multiple cases of virus have been detected?

himinlomax 7y ago

They demonstrably lost at the very least a whole week due to their censorship of early reports. You can debate how significant it was, but it's pretty obvious that 1. more liberal countries would typically not have lost that week and 2. swift response is essential in this kind of crisis.