6 ms·

This is a tried and true practice in dating, and it translates well to hiring, which is basically the same thing. Most people, ESPECIALLY people who ask you fo

This is a tried and true practice in dating, and it translates well to hiring, which is basically the same thing. Most people, ESPECIALLY people who ask you for feedback, do not want feedback. They want to get in a fight with you. Edit: I don't remember ghosting anyone personally in either setting, but it's happened to me plenty. Getting upset about it just means you're new to the experience.

Apocryphon 7y ago
Then maybe there can be a system that provides a disclaimer where they waive all ability to sue or otherwise get into a fight with you.
- bobthepanda 7y ago
  If they blab their mouth on social media and it goes viral they've already done the damage before you could serve court papers. Why even bother with the risk?
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    Because that’s allowing risk adverse mentalities to prevent companies from innovating in their hiring processes to build a more transparent and improved culture of hiring, and a chance to differentiate themselves from competitors with a reputation of good interviewing practices?
    - bobthepanda 7y ago
      Sure. > Then maybe there can be a system that provides a disclaimer where they waive all ability to sue or otherwise get into a fight with you. This ain't gonna help though, because it's not particularly useful at preventing the damage that these companies are afraid of, so it's not really going to tilt the existing balance.
      - Apocryphon 7y ago
        I just think companies don’t nearly take anonymous social media backlash as seriously as this discussion alleges they do. Anecdotally, companies barely take customer/client complaints on social media seriously, unless it goes viral- but how would that happen in the case of giving feedback to an applicant? Hard for it to be big news unless actual discriminatory practices emerged- in which the current system already fails to protect against. Perhaps companies are just behaving too conservatively, and there is room for interviewing platforms to improving the hiring process by giving the helpful feedback that applicants crave.
    - kortilla 7y ago
      Not really worth improving the pipeline of candidates you don’t want.
  - slimed 7y ago
    This is the sad truth of it. As a candidate I greatly appreciate feedback but I know there are others who will try to paint their not getting hired as due to bias (classism, racism, sexism, etc) without any evidence. I don't blame those who have been burned and ended the practice. An accusation might as well be a conviction in some situations.
  - intrepidhero 7y ago
    So that we can all work together to improve the hiring process. Seriously. I could get hit by car because I stopped to pick up some trash on the side of the road. But it's still a decent thing to do.
- tedunangst 7y ago
  And deal with all the blowback for yet another NDA? Plus the inevitable decision where you need to decide to enforce it and come across as even more of an asshole? For what benefit again?
- vonseel 7y ago
  What right does someone have to sue before they’ve been hired, anyways, unless it’s on a discrimination basis (in which this case, it is clearly not)? Here in Texas, at least, that sort of thing does not seem like something that would ever be a real legal risk. This is a right-to-work state; I figured it’s pretty hard to get sued here.
  - privateSFacct 7y ago
    Hiring bias litigation is common and expensive in other states. The advice you will get on HR side is because no binding arb. agreement is in place you are exposed to full litigation efforts including attorney fees. These can involve disparate effect or implicit bias - which can be difficult to defend against.
- scarejunba 7y ago
  Are you serious? Imagine the first HN headline that reads "Company X requires you to waive your ability to sue if you apply to them". Come on, man. Apply some tests to your ideas.
  - Apocryphon 7y ago
    That's already how most EULA click-through NDAs are, and no one blinks an eye. People are just numb to legal disclaimers now. One outrage article will not go viral, and will not sink any companies.
jscotto 7y ago
Honestly as someone who is looking for a junior role this could not be further from the truth. I just want to know how to improve so I can stop being unhappy at my current job and get a new one.
- nkingsy 7y ago
  I'd be happy to take a look at some code if you like. noahjkingsley//gmail
  - xtracto 7y ago
    This has the implicit right answer: A job interview is the worst moment/place for feedback. There is just too much heart/animosity at stake on both sides. I've been interviewing candidates for more than 15 years (for PhD /RA positions and then for Engineering) and every time I've given honest feedback, candidates just get into an argument on why they think the feedback does not apply to them... It is just not worth it. If I want to know how am I at certain skills... I test myself in a less "charged" environment.
    - loriverkutya 7y ago
      That means that in 15 years you have not learned how to give not honest busy constructive feedback.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- drchickensalad 7y ago
  I'm a little bit busy temporarily but I feel I can help you out. Email is the following backwards with symbols added: com live brandonbrowning
- tedunangst 7y ago
  This could be true, and people probably believe it, but my experience stepping in towards the end of an interview and guiding candidates towards the solution was nearly always immediate counter arguments. "I was going to do that next!"
josephg 7y ago
> Most people, ESPECIALLY people who ask you for feedback, do not want feedback. The data I've seen suggests you're totally wrong about this. I work at a company in the recruiting space. My primary role is interviewing technical candidates, and we provide very detailed feedback to candidates of all levels, regardless of whether or not we move forward with them. People consistently tell us they love the feedback that we provide - in fact, people say the feedback we provide is one of the best parts of their experience with us.
- nkingsy 7y ago
  I also have data on this. I previously worked for a marketplace company that had to vet freelance writers. The application process was partially automated, with multiple human reviewers that provided detailed scoring on the applicant’s performance. Initially, we provided a score breakdown to applicants, but we turned this off within a few weeks after a cascade of hostility.
  - loriverkutya 7y ago
    The difference is in the first case the feedback was constructive?
    - josephg 7y ago
      Probably. Our feedback doesn't contain question-by-question breakdowns or numerical scoring. Instead we try to make it actionable, practical and specific. It looks roughly like this: "Based on our interview we think you would really benefit from studying up on data structures and algorithms. If you want to study this stuff on your own, many people find (link) and (link) useful. But there's also (link) or (link) books available on amazon that we've had people recommend." Or: "We were impressed by your spoken communication skills, but sometimes you seemed to struggle to remember specific technical terms for some of the concepts and areas we discussed...." The feedback emails themselves are assembled from a mix of interviewer notes and reused snippets for comments we give frequently. This sort of stuff has been very time consuming for us to prepare. At the volume of candidates we interact with, we think its definitely worth it. But its possible that no feedback is better than bad feedback, and most organizations might not have the time to write good feedback to candidates. But I can say with confidence that almost everyone really appreciates the feedback we send. While its easy for senior people to find work at the moment, there's lots of junior people out there sending dozens of resumes for every call back. Receiving rejection after rejection from companies (or worse, being ghosted) without even being told what you're doing wrong is a really awful experience.
8f2ab37a-ed6c 7y ago
This. It took me one single experience of being threatened after sharing feedback to never want to do it again. Lesson learned. Once you've been a hiring manager and reviewer long enough, it becomes obvious that, while the intent behind giving feedback is good, the reality of it is messy, and provides no consistent upside to the company.
vonseel 7y ago
“They want to get in a fight with you.” They want to explain themselves. There is a difference. What you consider an argument or fight is just a Hail Mary, almost an involuntary recovery attempt, for some. Accepting feedback without trying to dig your way out of a hole or justify your actions is a sign of maturity.
privateSFacct 7y ago
80% of the time this is not true. But 20% of time it is. That's often enough to scare folks away.
pm24601 7y ago
The best feedback is completely fact based. > Most candidates finish the coding section in 40 minutes. You took 60 minutes. > In the system design part of the interview, the candidates we hire talk about SLA requirements. Facts. No interpretations. I am not even telling the person what they should do.
planetzero 7y ago
A couple of years ago, I was ghosted by a company after being interviewed. A few weeks later, I realized that the guy that interviewed me was just hired as a consultant by the company, and convinced the boss to hire him instead of me for my job. How did I find all of this out? Over A month later, they called me back. This was after I had been strung along by the business owner and the guy that interviewed me for over a week where they were going to make a final decision about hiring me..and then nothing. They couldn't be bothered to return my phone call or respond to any emails. They left a message that I had to schedule an appointment with the guy that interviewed me to basically interview me again. I, of course, never called them back, but sent both of them a nasty email telling them to fuck off in so many words. I never thought I would be ghosted like this from a potential employer.
- clarry 7y ago
  But there's a massive shortage of talent. Of course employers would ghost you. They can just hire the next consultant in queue.
- hondo77 7y ago
  > I never thought I would be ghosted like this from a potential employer. Get used to it. It sucks but if I got upset like I used to when a company ghosts me (I'm not just talking about after initial phone screens but even after lengthy on-site interviews), I'd be dead from the stress by now. It happens so often these days. Some companies behave decently but it seems that many more companies are following the lead of recruiters and behaving like jerks.
bartread 7y ago
> Most people, ESPECIALLY people who ask you for feedback, do not want feedback. They want to get in a fight with you. I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous: we give every applicant we speak to feedback and not once has anybody "got into a fight with us".

Apocryphon 7y ago

Then maybe there can be a system that provides a disclaimer where they waive all ability to sue or otherwise get into a fight with you.

bobthepanda 7y ago
If they blab their mouth on social media and it goes viral they've already done the damage before you could serve court papers. Why even bother with the risk?
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  Because that’s allowing risk adverse mentalities to prevent companies from innovating in their hiring processes to build a more transparent and improved culture of hiring, and a chance to differentiate themselves from competitors with a reputation of good interviewing practices?
  - bobthepanda 7y ago
    Sure. > Then maybe there can be a system that provides a disclaimer where they waive all ability to sue or otherwise get into a fight with you. This ain't gonna help though, because it's not particularly useful at preventing the damage that these companies are afraid of, so it's not really going to tilt the existing balance.
    - Apocryphon 7y ago
      I just think companies don’t nearly take anonymous social media backlash as seriously as this discussion alleges they do. Anecdotally, companies barely take customer/client complaints on social media seriously, unless it goes viral- but how would that happen in the case of giving feedback to an applicant? Hard for it to be big news unless actual discriminatory practices emerged- in which the current system already fails to protect against. Perhaps companies are just behaving too conservatively, and there is room for interviewing platforms to improving the hiring process by giving the helpful feedback that applicants crave.
  - kortilla 7y ago
    Not really worth improving the pipeline of candidates you don’t want.
- slimed 7y ago
  This is the sad truth of it. As a candidate I greatly appreciate feedback but I know there are others who will try to paint their not getting hired as due to bias (classism, racism, sexism, etc) without any evidence. I don't blame those who have been burned and ended the practice. An accusation might as well be a conviction in some situations.
- intrepidhero 7y ago
  So that we can all work together to improve the hiring process. Seriously. I could get hit by car because I stopped to pick up some trash on the side of the road. But it's still a decent thing to do.
tedunangst 7y ago
And deal with all the blowback for yet another NDA? Plus the inevitable decision where you need to decide to enforce it and come across as even more of an asshole? For what benefit again?
vonseel 7y ago
What right does someone have to sue before they’ve been hired, anyways, unless it’s on a discrimination basis (in which this case, it is clearly not)? Here in Texas, at least, that sort of thing does not seem like something that would ever be a real legal risk. This is a right-to-work state; I figured it’s pretty hard to get sued here.
- privateSFacct 7y ago
  Hiring bias litigation is common and expensive in other states. The advice you will get on HR side is because no binding arb. agreement is in place you are exposed to full litigation efforts including attorney fees. These can involve disparate effect or implicit bias - which can be difficult to defend against.
scarejunba 7y ago
Are you serious? Imagine the first HN headline that reads "Company X requires you to waive your ability to sue if you apply to them". Come on, man. Apply some tests to your ideas.
- Apocryphon 7y ago
  That's already how most EULA click-through NDAs are, and no one blinks an eye. People are just numb to legal disclaimers now. One outrage article will not go viral, and will not sink any companies.

jscotto 7y ago

Honestly as someone who is looking for a junior role this could not be further from the truth. I just want to know how to improve so I can stop being unhappy at my current job and get a new one.

nkingsy 7y ago
I'd be happy to take a look at some code if you like. noahjkingsley//gmail
- xtracto 7y ago
  This has the implicit right answer: A job interview is the worst moment/place for feedback. There is just too much heart/animosity at stake on both sides. I've been interviewing candidates for more than 15 years (for PhD /RA positions and then for Engineering) and every time I've given honest feedback, candidates just get into an argument on why they think the feedback does not apply to them... It is just not worth it. If I want to know how am I at certain skills... I test myself in a less "charged" environment.
  - loriverkutya 7y ago
    That means that in 15 years you have not learned how to give not honest busy constructive feedback.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
drchickensalad 7y ago
I'm a little bit busy temporarily but I feel I can help you out. Email is the following backwards with symbols added: com live brandonbrowning
tedunangst 7y ago
This could be true, and people probably believe it, but my experience stepping in towards the end of an interview and guiding candidates towards the solution was nearly always immediate counter arguments. "I was going to do that next!"

josephg 7y ago

> Most people, ESPECIALLY people who ask you for feedback, do not want feedback. The data I've seen suggests you're totally wrong about this. I work at a company in the recruiting space. My primary role is interviewing technical candidates, and we provide very detailed feedback to candidates of all levels, regardless of whether or not we move forward with them. People consistently tell us they love the feedback that we provide - in fact, people say the feedback we provide is one of the best parts of their experience with us.

nkingsy 7y ago
I also have data on this. I previously worked for a marketplace company that had to vet freelance writers. The application process was partially automated, with multiple human reviewers that provided detailed scoring on the applicant’s performance. Initially, we provided a score breakdown to applicants, but we turned this off within a few weeks after a cascade of hostility.
- loriverkutya 7y ago
  The difference is in the first case the feedback was constructive?
  - josephg 7y ago
    Probably. Our feedback doesn't contain question-by-question breakdowns or numerical scoring. Instead we try to make it actionable, practical and specific. It looks roughly like this: "Based on our interview we think you would really benefit from studying up on data structures and algorithms. If you want to study this stuff on your own, many people find (link) and (link) useful. But there's also (link) or (link) books available on amazon that we've had people recommend." Or: "We were impressed by your spoken communication skills, but sometimes you seemed to struggle to remember specific technical terms for some of the concepts and areas we discussed...." The feedback emails themselves are assembled from a mix of interviewer notes and reused snippets for comments we give frequently. This sort of stuff has been very time consuming for us to prepare. At the volume of candidates we interact with, we think its definitely worth it. But its possible that no feedback is better than bad feedback, and most organizations might not have the time to write good feedback to candidates. But I can say with confidence that almost everyone really appreciates the feedback we send. While its easy for senior people to find work at the moment, there's lots of junior people out there sending dozens of resumes for every call back. Receiving rejection after rejection from companies (or worse, being ghosted) without even being told what you're doing wrong is a really awful experience.

8f2ab37a-ed6c 7y ago

This. It took me one single experience of being threatened after sharing feedback to never want to do it again. Lesson learned. Once you've been a hiring manager and reviewer long enough, it becomes obvious that, while the intent behind giving feedback is good, the reality of it is messy, and provides no consistent upside to the company.

vonseel 7y ago

“They want to get in a fight with you.” They want to explain themselves. There is a difference. What you consider an argument or fight is just a Hail Mary, almost an involuntary recovery attempt, for some. Accepting feedback without trying to dig your way out of a hole or justify your actions is a sign of maturity.

privateSFacct 7y ago

80% of the time this is not true. But 20% of time it is. That's often enough to scare folks away.

pm24601 7y ago

The best feedback is completely fact based. > Most candidates finish the coding section in 40 minutes. You took 60 minutes. > In the system design part of the interview, the candidates we hire talk about SLA requirements. Facts. No interpretations. I am not even telling the person what they should do.

planetzero 7y ago

A couple of years ago, I was ghosted by a company after being interviewed. A few weeks later, I realized that the guy that interviewed me was just hired as a consultant by the company, and convinced the boss to hire him instead of me for my job. How did I find all of this out? Over A month later, they called me back. This was after I had been strung along by the business owner and the guy that interviewed me for over a week where they were going to make a final decision about hiring me..and then nothing. They couldn't be bothered to return my phone call or respond to any emails. They left a message that I had to schedule an appointment with the guy that interviewed me to basically interview me again. I, of course, never called them back, but sent both of them a nasty email telling them to fuck off in so many words. I never thought I would be ghosted like this from a potential employer.

clarry 7y ago
But there's a massive shortage of talent. Of course employers would ghost you. They can just hire the next consultant in queue.
hondo77 7y ago
> I never thought I would be ghosted like this from a potential employer. Get used to it. It sucks but if I got upset like I used to when a company ghosts me (I'm not just talking about after initial phone screens but even after lengthy on-site interviews), I'd be dead from the stress by now. It happens so often these days. Some companies behave decently but it seems that many more companies are following the lead of recruiters and behaving like jerks.

bartread 7y ago

> Most people, ESPECIALLY people who ask you for feedback, do not want feedback. They want to get in a fight with you. I'm sorry but that's just ridiculous: we give every applicant we speak to feedback and not once has anybody "got into a fight with us".