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Much of this is far less sinister if you think who most likely gets held accountable for a battery explosion. With 2 billion iPhones sold and 750 million in us

Much of this is far less sinister if you think who most likely gets held accountable for a battery explosion. With 2 billion iPhones sold and 750 million in use, anything that can be done wrong, will be done wrong, somewhere — and the easiest proximate party to blame gets blamed. Changes the risk reward calculus.

mqus 7y ago
Apple doesnt need third parties to create issues with their products, they create enough on their own without acknowledging them and it doesnt seem to have damaged them all that much. I also dont think that issues caused by third party repairs will: - cause consumers/media to point their fingers at apple first and foremost - become widespread enough to actually be influencing apples image. Even if they do, I imagine that such issues will likely be caused indirectly by apple anyway, be it bad design decisions or abysmal availability of parts&schematics
JohnFen 7y ago
Nope, it's still very, very sinister. If a repair shop does something so incompetent that they cause a battery explosion (extremely unlikely, but let's go with it), then the repair shop will be held accountable, not Apple. Apple's worst case is that they'll have to push back on bad news reporting. That's not a huge burden. The reason Apple does this is solely because they make a ton of money doing this. Apple stance here is harmful to literally everyone else, whether they use Apple products or not. Apple is being a straight-up villain on this issue.
- t-writescode 7y ago
  I attempted a battery repair myself, personally. No repair shop to blame required! Some people would blame Apple for home repairs
  - webmobdev 7y ago
    > Some people would blame Apple for home repairs And they would be justified in doing so!
  - II2II 7y ago
    Perhaps they should be. Even rechargeable batteries are consumables in the sense that they have a limited lifespan. When considering the lifespan of the product as a whole, there is a reasonable expectation that the battery will need to be replaced. I would suggest that the proper replacement battery should be available to the consumer and the replacement process simplified to enable self-servicing. This scenario is quite different from design or manufacturing defects, where is is reasonable to expect the manufacturer (or a competent technician) to handle the repair. It is also quite different from abuse, where the user may inflict damage to virtually any component.
- briandear 7y ago
  > then the repair shop will be held accountable, not Apple How much experience do you have with plaintiff law? In a product liability lawsuit, everyone gets sued all the way up and down the supply chain. And these aren’t cheap lawsuits, powerful and dee pocketed plaintiffs attorneys take these cases on contingency, especially against an ultra deep pocketed Apple. Third party liability would absolutely ensnare Apple if a repair shop caused an exploding battery injury.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    > In a product liability lawsuit, everyone gets sued all the way up and down the supply chain. Everyone gets named initially, yes -- I've been named as a defendant in a lawsuit myself because I was in the supply chain involved with a product liability suit. But very early on, the defendants make the case to the judge about why they shouldn't be part of the lawsuit. That's what happened with me. It took about a month and cost me a couple of grand in attorney's fees. In a case such as what is being posited here, that's precisely what Apple would do, too.
webmobdev 7y ago
That's bullshit - millions of electrical and electronic items have been repaired before in the past and in case something went wrong with the repair and caused damage, it's always the person who repaired who was blamed and not the company that manufactured the product (unless they gave faulty parts). If Apple is really concerned about batteries exploding, all it needs to do is to make it easy to buy original or compatible batteries for its iDevices and provide removable batteries (like millions of other phones today still do). The user won't even have to go to an engineer to replace the battery ... oh, but then how would planned obsolescence work and poor Apple make more money!
- briandear 7y ago
  > it's always the person who repaired who was blamed and not the company that manufactured the product (unless they gave faulty parts). Not always. See Brown v. Quick Mix Co. Under the doctrine of joint and several liability a plaintiff may pursue an obligation against any one party as if they were jointly liable. That means that if Apple were found even 0.05% responsible for a third party battery explosion (i.e. the metal out of which they made the phones is conducive to fragmenting in an explosion, or some other such legal gymnastics,) then The defendant could collect 100% of the damages from Apple — even though Apple. This means that the plaintiff could recover all of their damages even if Apple’s share of the liability were near zero. It’s pretty clear that those that claim “it’s always the person that repaired who was blamed” — has never spent any time in a courtroom. That’s just outright false.
  - AnthonyMouse 7y ago
    In that case Apple should be in favor of a Right to Repair bill that explicitly absolves the OEM of any such liability for third party repairs, right?
    - judge2020 7y ago
      I imagine not all state-driven right-to-repair laws will be as sensible as Apple would like.
CobrastanJorji 7y ago
Can you explain how this is different than, say, cars? If a car disastrously fails, the consequences may be much, much worse. Would it be less sinister if Ford required all authorized Ford repair shops to be audited up to five years after they stop working on Ford cars?
mnm1 7y ago
Absurd. That's what car manufacturers would have you believe too. By this line of reasoning, repairing cars should only be done by the original manufacturer because cars are dangerous and something will go bad. I've personally almost been killed by break lines being installed wrong by Pep Boys. Who would I sue in that case? Toyota or Pep Boys? Obviously the latter. They screwed in the break lines backwards, stripping them, like the total fucking idiot morons that they are. If cars are repairable, all consumer electronics should be because literally no consumer electronic device is anywhere close as dangerous as cars. This doesn't change anything nor does it make it any less sinister. You're just making excuses for Apple's horrific behavior.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
simion314 7y ago
>Much of this is far less sinister if you think who most likely gets held accountable for a battery explosion. This is a bad excuse, first of all Apple batteries will sometimes "explode" and you did not see Apple suffer for it(maybe some fanboys pride was hurt). We even have real data to do a scientific test, keyboards were failing, in the first months the users got the blame, they were using it wrong, they were eating at the keyboard... it took 1 year for Apple to acknowledge a fault and it got praised for the fact it will offer some limited free keyboard replacement. Analyzing this you can conclude that even if Apple is at fault the users get the blame so I don't see how if the user replaces a battery and it explodes Apple would get any amount of blame. In most countries warranty is not invalidated because you open a device, so Apple TOS are illegal, you can change your mirror on your car and you won't void your engine warranty, I am not forced to use a particular brand of oil in the car or a particular mechanic.

mqus 7y ago

Apple doesnt need third parties to create issues with their products, they create enough on their own without acknowledging them and it doesnt seem to have damaged them all that much. I also dont think that issues caused by third party repairs will: - cause consumers/media to point their fingers at apple first and foremost - become widespread enough to actually be influencing apples image. Even if they do, I imagine that such issues will likely be caused indirectly by apple anyway, be it bad design decisions or abysmal availability of parts&schematics

JohnFen 7y ago

Nope, it's still very, very sinister. If a repair shop does something so incompetent that they cause a battery explosion (extremely unlikely, but let's go with it), then the repair shop will be held accountable, not Apple. Apple's worst case is that they'll have to push back on bad news reporting. That's not a huge burden. The reason Apple does this is solely because they make a ton of money doing this. Apple stance here is harmful to literally everyone else, whether they use Apple products or not. Apple is being a straight-up villain on this issue.

t-writescode 7y ago
I attempted a battery repair myself, personally. No repair shop to blame required! Some people would blame Apple for home repairs
- webmobdev 7y ago
  > Some people would blame Apple for home repairs And they would be justified in doing so!
- II2II 7y ago
  Perhaps they should be. Even rechargeable batteries are consumables in the sense that they have a limited lifespan. When considering the lifespan of the product as a whole, there is a reasonable expectation that the battery will need to be replaced. I would suggest that the proper replacement battery should be available to the consumer and the replacement process simplified to enable self-servicing. This scenario is quite different from design or manufacturing defects, where is is reasonable to expect the manufacturer (or a competent technician) to handle the repair. It is also quite different from abuse, where the user may inflict damage to virtually any component.
briandear 7y ago
> then the repair shop will be held accountable, not Apple How much experience do you have with plaintiff law? In a product liability lawsuit, everyone gets sued all the way up and down the supply chain. And these aren’t cheap lawsuits, powerful and dee pocketed plaintiffs attorneys take these cases on contingency, especially against an ultra deep pocketed Apple. Third party liability would absolutely ensnare Apple if a repair shop caused an exploding battery injury.
- JohnFen 7y ago
  > In a product liability lawsuit, everyone gets sued all the way up and down the supply chain. Everyone gets named initially, yes -- I've been named as a defendant in a lawsuit myself because I was in the supply chain involved with a product liability suit. But very early on, the defendants make the case to the judge about why they shouldn't be part of the lawsuit. That's what happened with me. It took about a month and cost me a couple of grand in attorney's fees. In a case such as what is being posited here, that's precisely what Apple would do, too.

webmobdev 7y ago

That's bullshit - millions of electrical and electronic items have been repaired before in the past and in case something went wrong with the repair and caused damage, it's always the person who repaired who was blamed and not the company that manufactured the product (unless they gave faulty parts). If Apple is really concerned about batteries exploding, all it needs to do is to make it easy to buy original or compatible batteries for its iDevices and provide removable batteries (like millions of other phones today still do). The user won't even have to go to an engineer to replace the battery ... oh, but then how would planned obsolescence work and poor Apple make more money!

briandear 7y ago
> it's always the person who repaired who was blamed and not the company that manufactured the product (unless they gave faulty parts). Not always. See Brown v. Quick Mix Co. Under the doctrine of joint and several liability a plaintiff may pursue an obligation against any one party as if they were jointly liable. That means that if Apple were found even 0.05% responsible for a third party battery explosion (i.e. the metal out of which they made the phones is conducive to fragmenting in an explosion, or some other such legal gymnastics,) then The defendant could collect 100% of the damages from Apple — even though Apple. This means that the plaintiff could recover all of their damages even if Apple’s share of the liability were near zero. It’s pretty clear that those that claim “it’s always the person that repaired who was blamed” — has never spent any time in a courtroom. That’s just outright false.
- AnthonyMouse 7y ago
  In that case Apple should be in favor of a Right to Repair bill that explicitly absolves the OEM of any such liability for third party repairs, right?
  - judge2020 7y ago
    I imagine not all state-driven right-to-repair laws will be as sensible as Apple would like.

CobrastanJorji 7y ago

Can you explain how this is different than, say, cars? If a car disastrously fails, the consequences may be much, much worse. Would it be less sinister if Ford required all authorized Ford repair shops to be audited up to five years after they stop working on Ford cars?

mnm1 7y ago

Absurd. That's what car manufacturers would have you believe too. By this line of reasoning, repairing cars should only be done by the original manufacturer because cars are dangerous and something will go bad. I've personally almost been killed by break lines being installed wrong by Pep Boys. Who would I sue in that case? Toyota or Pep Boys? Obviously the latter. They screwed in the break lines backwards, stripping them, like the total fucking idiot morons that they are. If cars are repairable, all consumer electronics should be because literally no consumer electronic device is anywhere close as dangerous as cars. This doesn't change anything nor does it make it any less sinister. You're just making excuses for Apple's horrific behavior.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

simion314 7y ago

>Much of this is far less sinister if you think who most likely gets held accountable for a battery explosion. This is a bad excuse, first of all Apple batteries will sometimes "explode" and you did not see Apple suffer for it(maybe some fanboys pride was hurt). We even have real data to do a scientific test, keyboards were failing, in the first months the users got the blame, they were using it wrong, they were eating at the keyboard... it took 1 year for Apple to acknowledge a fault and it got praised for the fact it will offer some limited free keyboard replacement. Analyzing this you can conclude that even if Apple is at fault the users get the blame so I don't see how if the user replaces a battery and it explodes Apple would get any amount of blame. In most countries warranty is not invalidated because you open a device, so Apple TOS are illegal, you can change your mirror on your car and you won't void your engine warranty, I am not forced to use a particular brand of oil in the car or a particular mechanic.