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Oh yes. Believe in this thing that you don't believe in so that you can become a better person. Except that believing for that reason is simply telling yourse

by btilly 7y ago

Oh yes. Believe in this thing that you don't believe in so that you can become a better person. Except that believing for that reason is simply telling yourself a lie. And professing faith based on a lie will make you a worse person. And yet this type of argument is often used by those who seek to spread the Gospel. See likewise Pascal's Wager. That said, there is no evidence that I am aware of for Christianity actually making people into better people. I have seen a number of attempts to prove it (for example to support faith based programs in jails), but when the same data was analyzed using normal statistical methodologies (for example not excluding people who left the program because of problems), the evidence disappeared.

yters 7y ago
See the western civilization you live. Largely the product of Christianity. OP can look into Christianity to see if they find it plausible. I am suggesting it is a good place to look, as the premise of Christianity is there is a greater reality than the self.
- btilly 7y ago
  My understanding of the history is that Christianity took a free ride on a freight train caused by other things that in turn were not helped by Christianity. For example the early history of science shows that science took off exactly where and when conflict between different Christian sects left no religious authority with sufficient power to stop people from exploring dangerous ideas. And to the tired old argument that our society's cultural values are founded in Christianity, they are not. As a demonstration compare the many, many comments from Jesus against acquiring material wealth with how deeply established Capitalism is in our society. (Mark 10:25 on how hard it is for rich men to get into heaven comes to mind. Note that virtually all Americans are rich by world standards.) Our society, like all others that I know of, cherrypicks from religious texts to find support for what it wants to believe is true, rather than following those texts to the conclusions that are clearly there. (Whether those conclusions are good is a different story.) In fact most of our most cherished cultural values either predate Christianity (eg the Golden Rule) or postdate the Enlightenment (eg our rejection of slavery). It is hard to point to many that clearly were introduced by the Bible and have become adopted. (Note, just because it is in the Bible does not mean that it was introduced there. Again, see the Golden Rule as an example.)
  - yters 7y ago
    Those are certainly interesting claims! There are a number of arguments that science came about in western culture because of Christian belief in an intelligible and orderly creator, at odds with the other philosophies of that time (and arguably our own). I've also heard that the original invention of capitalism came about within the monastic university system that generated our modern university. Jesus does disparage seeking after material wealth, and the early church held all possessions in common to help the needy among them. But, he also tells the parable of the talents, which encourages people to make the most of what they have, and the one guy who doesn't is punished. So, I would say Jesus is anti-greed, not anti-capitalism. The apostle Paul goes onto say those who don't work should not eat, and that hardworking pastors should be financially rewarded. Jesus' golden rule is part of the beatitudes, which I understand to be unique among moral teachings. Foundational is the idea that all humans are created in the image of God, and should be loved accordingly. My understanding is chattel slavery came about after the enlightenment, perhaps due to the elimination of belief that all humans are created in the image of God. Instead we have the Darwinian view that humans form a continuum with animals, and thus implying humans can be treated like animals. I do believe the relationship between Christianity and western culture is more than you propose. If you want some interesting secular books to read on the topic, check out anything by Rodney Stark.
    - btilly 7y ago
      Those are certainly interesting claims! I believe that they are true ones. There are a number of arguments that science came about in western culture because of Christian belief in an intelligible and orderly creator, at odds with the other philosophies of that time (and arguably our own). I have read _Meditations_ by Marcus Aurelius. It is obvious that the idea of an intelligible and orderly creator is very much part of the pagan tradition that he is from, which predates and is not of Christian origin. Furthermore the intellectual roots of empirical science are in ancient Greece. And when it flourished again starting in the 1600s, religious communities (famously including what happened to Galileo) suppressed the dangerous new line of inquiry. Christianity does not seem to have been of assistance. I've also heard that the original invention of capitalism came about within the monastic university system that generated our modern university. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism#Origins_of_capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism#Origins_... lists many theories about the origin of capitalism. The idea that it was invented in monastaries is notably absent. Jesus does disparage seeking after material wealth, and the early church held all possessions in common to help the needy among them. But, he also tells the parable of the talents, which encourages people to make the most of what they have, and the one guy who doesn't is punished. So, I would say Jesus is anti-greed, not anti-capitalism. The apostle Paul goes onto say those who don't work should not eat, and that hardworking pastors should be financially rewarded. And are these attitudes part of our culture? Jesus' golden rule is part of the beatitudes, which I understand to be unique among moral teachings. Foundational is the idea that all humans are created in the image of God, and should be loved accordingly. My understanding is chattel slavery came about after the enlightenment, perhaps due to the elimination of belief that all humans are created in the image of God. Instead we have the Darwinian view that humans form a continuum with animals, and thus implying humans can be treated like animals. If that is your understanding, then you truly do not know the history. Chattel slavery existed from ancient times. Tying chattel slavery to race was religiously justified by the claim that blacks were descended from Caine and therefore cursed and inferior. The development of the Darwinian view of evolution happened in the same general time frame as the ABOLISHMENT of slavery, not its increase. Compare. England abolished most slavery in 1833. The Origin of the Species was written in 1859. Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was 1863. Its actual adoption took place not many years after. The view that humans form a continuum with animals coincided with a more humane treatment of humans, not less. An amusing legal note supports this. Read the case of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ellen_Wilson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ellen_Wilson to find that the principle that we should not let children be too badly mistreated by their parents was first enforced in the USA using laws that were intended to prevent undue cruelty to animals. This is a literal case where treating humans as animals lead to humans being treated better! I do believe the relationship between Christianity and western culture is more than you propose. If you want some interesting secular books to read on the topic, check out anything by Rodney Stark. I have a counterproposal. Why don't you read https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1185/1185-h/1185-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1185/1185-h/1185-h.htm instead? And take seriously one of its opening points, namely, "The antagonism we thus witness between Religion and Science is the continuation of a struggle that commenced when Christianity began to attain political power. A divine revelation must necessarily be intolerant of contradiction; it must repudiate all improvement in itself, and view with disdain that arising from the progressive intellectual development of man. But our opinions on every subject are continually liable to modification, from the irresistible advance of human knowledge."
yters 7y ago
Also I personally know people whose lives have been completely changed after believing in Jesus. For example my uncle who used to be part of Hell's Angels. One day he decided to believe in Jesus, and now he runs a drug rehab, is a deacon at his church, and runs missionary trips to preach the Gospel to drug lords in Columbia. Or take my own parents, normal college kids from middle upper class non believing households. My dad chose to follow Jesus while in the Navy, and then he and my mom devoted the rest of their lives to missionary work. Or my wife's mother who grew up living with people doing drugs and living promiscuously, and generally not going anywhere. She and her siblings chose to follow Jesus, left their situation, founded a church, all attended college and some gained advanced degrees and PhDs, and my mother-in-law ran a lab at John Hopkins. My perception is Christianity can certainly change lives for the better, in dramatic ways.

by btilly 7y ago

yters 7y ago

See the western civilization you live. Largely the product of Christianity. OP can look into Christianity to see if they find it plausible. I am suggesting it is a good place to look, as the premise of Christianity is there is a greater reality than the self.

btilly 7y ago
My understanding of the history is that Christianity took a free ride on a freight train caused by other things that in turn were not helped by Christianity. For example the early history of science shows that science took off exactly where and when conflict between different Christian sects left no religious authority with sufficient power to stop people from exploring dangerous ideas. And to the tired old argument that our society's cultural values are founded in Christianity, they are not. As a demonstration compare the many, many comments from Jesus against acquiring material wealth with how deeply established Capitalism is in our society. (Mark 10:25 on how hard it is for rich men to get into heaven comes to mind. Note that virtually all Americans are rich by world standards.) Our society, like all others that I know of, cherrypicks from religious texts to find support for what it wants to believe is true, rather than following those texts to the conclusions that are clearly there. (Whether those conclusions are good is a different story.) In fact most of our most cherished cultural values either predate Christianity (eg the Golden Rule) or postdate the Enlightenment (eg our rejection of slavery). It is hard to point to many that clearly were introduced by the Bible and have become adopted. (Note, just because it is in the Bible does not mean that it was introduced there. Again, see the Golden Rule as an example.)
- yters 7y ago
  Those are certainly interesting claims! There are a number of arguments that science came about in western culture because of Christian belief in an intelligible and orderly creator, at odds with the other philosophies of that time (and arguably our own). I've also heard that the original invention of capitalism came about within the monastic university system that generated our modern university. Jesus does disparage seeking after material wealth, and the early church held all possessions in common to help the needy among them. But, he also tells the parable of the talents, which encourages people to make the most of what they have, and the one guy who doesn't is punished. So, I would say Jesus is anti-greed, not anti-capitalism. The apostle Paul goes onto say those who don't work should not eat, and that hardworking pastors should be financially rewarded. Jesus' golden rule is part of the beatitudes, which I understand to be unique among moral teachings. Foundational is the idea that all humans are created in the image of God, and should be loved accordingly. My understanding is chattel slavery came about after the enlightenment, perhaps due to the elimination of belief that all humans are created in the image of God. Instead we have the Darwinian view that humans form a continuum with animals, and thus implying humans can be treated like animals. I do believe the relationship between Christianity and western culture is more than you propose. If you want some interesting secular books to read on the topic, check out anything by Rodney Stark.
  - btilly 7y ago
    Those are certainly interesting claims! I believe that they are true ones. There are a number of arguments that science came about in western culture because of Christian belief in an intelligible and orderly creator, at odds with the other philosophies of that time (and arguably our own). I have read _Meditations_ by Marcus Aurelius. It is obvious that the idea of an intelligible and orderly creator is very much part of the pagan tradition that he is from, which predates and is not of Christian origin. Furthermore the intellectual roots of empirical science are in ancient Greece. And when it flourished again starting in the 1600s, religious communities (famously including what happened to Galileo) suppressed the dangerous new line of inquiry. Christianity does not seem to have been of assistance. I've also heard that the original invention of capitalism came about within the monastic university system that generated our modern university. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism#Origins_of_capitalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_capitalism#Origins_... lists many theories about the origin of capitalism. The idea that it was invented in monastaries is notably absent. Jesus does disparage seeking after material wealth, and the early church held all possessions in common to help the needy among them. But, he also tells the parable of the talents, which encourages people to make the most of what they have, and the one guy who doesn't is punished. So, I would say Jesus is anti-greed, not anti-capitalism. The apostle Paul goes onto say those who don't work should not eat, and that hardworking pastors should be financially rewarded. And are these attitudes part of our culture? Jesus' golden rule is part of the beatitudes, which I understand to be unique among moral teachings. Foundational is the idea that all humans are created in the image of God, and should be loved accordingly. My understanding is chattel slavery came about after the enlightenment, perhaps due to the elimination of belief that all humans are created in the image of God. Instead we have the Darwinian view that humans form a continuum with animals, and thus implying humans can be treated like animals. If that is your understanding, then you truly do not know the history. Chattel slavery existed from ancient times. Tying chattel slavery to race was religiously justified by the claim that blacks were descended from Caine and therefore cursed and inferior. The development of the Darwinian view of evolution happened in the same general time frame as the ABOLISHMENT of slavery, not its increase. Compare. England abolished most slavery in 1833. The Origin of the Species was written in 1859. Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was 1863. Its actual adoption took place not many years after. The view that humans form a continuum with animals coincided with a more humane treatment of humans, not less. An amusing legal note supports this. Read the case of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ellen_Wilson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Ellen_Wilson to find that the principle that we should not let children be too badly mistreated by their parents was first enforced in the USA using laws that were intended to prevent undue cruelty to animals. This is a literal case where treating humans as animals lead to humans being treated better! I do believe the relationship between Christianity and western culture is more than you propose. If you want some interesting secular books to read on the topic, check out anything by Rodney Stark. I have a counterproposal. Why don't you read https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1185/1185-h/1185-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1185/1185-h/1185-h.htm instead? And take seriously one of its opening points, namely, "The antagonism we thus witness between Religion and Science is the continuation of a struggle that commenced when Christianity began to attain political power. A divine revelation must necessarily be intolerant of contradiction; it must repudiate all improvement in itself, and view with disdain that arising from the progressive intellectual development of man. But our opinions on every subject are continually liable to modification, from the irresistible advance of human knowledge."

yters 7y ago

Also I personally know people whose lives have been completely changed after believing in Jesus. For example my uncle who used to be part of Hell's Angels. One day he decided to believe in Jesus, and now he runs a drug rehab, is a deacon at his church, and runs missionary trips to preach the Gospel to drug lords in Columbia. Or take my own parents, normal college kids from middle upper class non believing households. My dad chose to follow Jesus while in the Navy, and then he and my mom devoted the rest of their lives to missionary work. Or my wife's mother who grew up living with people doing drugs and living promiscuously, and generally not going anywhere. She and her siblings chose to follow Jesus, left their situation, founded a church, all attended college and some gained advanced degrees and PhDs, and my mother-in-law ran a lab at John Hopkins. My perception is Christianity can certainly change lives for the better, in dramatic ways.