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when viewed from a sludge-money lens (a la the F35) electronic voting and election security seem largely working as intended: - we know paper works (Canada/UK)

when viewed from a sludge-money lens (a la the F35) electronic voting and election security seem largely working as intended: - we know paper works (Canada/UK) so there must be an ulterior motive for pushing on tech solution so hard - money gets sent to various entities under the guise of tech, security, freedom, etc. (contracts for voting machines, contracts for software, etc.). this basically gives some limited air cover for transfer of funds to entities - it nicely feeds into itself: defensive work always needs to keep up with (real or imagined) offensive threats so basically unlimited amounts can be spent without too much eye rolling - it is basically a get out of jail free card for both political parties in the future: "elections were hacked" is bipartisan and can be a useful tool to defeat/deny access to popular party outsiders on both parties, as opposed to a genuine candidate blowing up the system (Sanders?) - any foreign entity can be conveniently used if e.g. need to get a quick war going to distract the plebs from, say, medical parasitism or offshoring jobs

ctoth 7y ago
Posiwid thinking. The purpose of a system is what it does.
claudeganon 7y ago
Judging from Iowa, I imagine that some primary Sanders wins will claim to have been hacked by Russians. Democratic Party operatives were already doing false flag “Kremlin” stuff during the Doug Jones race in Alabama: https://thegrayzone.com/2019/01/23/how-new-york-times-scott-shane-covered-for-architects-of-a-shocking-false-flag-elections-campaign-in-alabama/ https://thegrayzone.com/2019/01/23/how-new-york-times-scott-...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
syshum 7y ago
>>- we know paper works (Canada/UK) so there must be an ulterior motive for pushing on tech solution so hard Works sure, efficient no, and largely one of the reason for low participation rates (though far from the only) That said none of the "tech" solutions that simply replace paper ballots at a polling place with a Touch Screen at a polling place would be what I desire from a "tech" solution to voting The rest of your points are largely true, though on the money never discount the power of incompetence when it comes to government, they way government contracts are "awarded" attracts the most incompetent people in any industry for if they were competent they would not need government contracts as the old saying goes... If you can... do If you cant.. Teach If you cant teach... Work for the government
- vkou 7y ago
  > efficient no, How is it not efficient? Elections Canada figures out how to count ballots in a few hours. 95% of the work of putting on an election is setting up, and running the polling stations. Using an electronic system is not going to make that 95% any easier. The only thing that would make it easier, is purely mail-in ballots, like in Washington State. > and largely one of the reason for low participation rates (though far from the only) Canada has a 5-15% higher voter turnout rate.
  - syshum 7y ago
    >>How is it not efficient? It is not efficient for the people voting. More than 1 election I simply skipped because I did not want to find my polling place, stand in line, and then vote I want a Polling Place free Voting system
    - munk-a 7y ago
      Take this up with your government - electronic voting systems isn't the solution for this... making a huge deal over states when they cut the number of polling places is. It is super depressing that AZ[1] wasn't rung through the wringer by public outrage over their polling place shenanigans in the last election - both winners and losers should care about the accessibility of voting. Also it's about time for election day to become a national holiday - as a former Vermonter I always enjoyed participating in Town Meeting Day, giving people a day off to participate in government is a strictly good thing. 1. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/03/22/live-arizona-primary-coverage-presidential-preference-election/82096726/ https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016...
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - Swenrekcah 7y ago
      There are really easy solutions to this that other countries use, while keeping the safe and simple paper ballots. They have many polling places, enough that queues aren’t more than a few minutes at the most. They don’t make the polling places deliberately hard to get to. They hold elections on a weekend or a public holiday so the flow evens out over the course of the whole day.
colejohnson66 7y ago
> ...so there must be an ulterior motive for pushing on tech solution so hard I know someone in the industry who thinks software voting will solve the issues. It’s not ulterior motives; People actually believe it will help.
- ngold 7y ago
  Nothing beats the relaxation of voting by mail. Secure? Better then most.
  - jcrawfordor 7y ago
    Keep in mind that mail-in ballots are counted by centralized OMR which generally provide the voter less assurance that their vote was successfully tabulated than a precinct tabulation system. For example, a mail-in ballot that is erroneously marked or overvoted (too many choices in a race) may need to be simply discarded for that question, while a precinct tabulator will reject such a ballot and return it to the voter for correction or to be spoiled (replaced). Mail-in voting systems also generally use a permit system to allow voters to check online that their ballot was received, but the need to maintain a secret ballot means that permits (actually the outer envelope usually) and ballots are separated at tabulation and so mail-in voters have less assurance that their ballot actually made it to the tabulator than voters in precinct tabulation jurisdictions where they insert it themselves. All of this said, the convenience and accessibility of mail-in voting is extremely beneficial and so an ideal solution may be a hybrid arrangement in which voters have the option of mailing in their ballots or submitting them for immediate tabulation at a precinct or early polling location. This system actually exists in several states although the "mail-in option" tends to actually be an extension of absentee voting (basically, you are allowed to vote absentee by mail even if you just want your ballot sent to your own house inside of the jurisdiction), but awareness of the mail-in voting option could be significantly improved.
- morio 7y ago
  Agreed, I see a lot of "if Estonia can do online voting, why can't we?" When I talk to some of these people, who work in the SV as software engineers, I realize not everyone has a wide ranging context on security and privacy. Not everyone religiously attends or watches DEFCON presentations... There is also a continuous push to make results available faster, basically instantly. The media is as guilty as everyone else here. Like we can't wait for a few days for results. Lastly reducing the amount of total paid workers and volunteers in the field to reduce costs likely looks like a shiny object in many managers eyes.
mzs 7y ago
UK and Canada are parliamentary systems so most ballots are one page. Most of those are just a single question with one selection permitted. In the US the ballot I get in my polling place depends on where I live and sometimes what party I am registered with. My ballot will likely be different than the next person in line. That ballot is many pages with numerous questions per page. And for about half of the questions I am permitted more than one selection. Machines are a good aid here for this system. Verifiable paper tallies are good for election security though.
- roganartu 7y ago
  What you describe is not that different from Australia's preferential system afaict, aside from people at one district potentially having different ballots. Australian ballots are not always simple, and you vote for your local representative so each district has a different one. Often you will have multiple ballots to complete, and some have the choice between above or below the line voting (where above you select some preferences and below you select all preferences, where all may be over 100 boxes). Parties often hand out small leaflets outside the voting locations with instructions for above the line voting, which is typically a list of around 6 preferences in order. Despite this, voting in Australia is done with paper, and we have live coverage with real-time counts on election night. Paper works quite well, computers really aren't necessary.
  - mzs 7y ago
    Australia is always a curveball! I've wondered how a precinct counts those ballots, especially if some people vote below the line. I hope someone with experience comments here.
    - roganartu 7y ago
      You don't have to wonder, the counting process is well documented! :) https://www.aec.gov.au/voting/counting/ https://www.aec.gov.au/voting/counting/
      - 7y ago
pjc50 7y ago
The additional problem with election security is distinguishing between the parts of the corruption that are local, protected and untouchable; the parts done by foreign actors at the behest of the local untouchables; and the parts done by foreign actors on their own initiative against the local elites. There's no need to hack the votes themselves if you can just get a list of opposition voters and just cancel their registrations, for example: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/28/georgia-voting-rights-purge-stacey-abrams https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/28/georgia-voti...
jcrawfordor 7y ago
Introduction of electronic voting in the US was primarily motivated by the Help America Vote Act of 2002 which required that election authorities more effectively accommodate the needs of voters with sensory and mobility needs. Previously used election methods were generally inoperable by individuals with such disabilities unless they had a second person enter their votes for them, which is considered a compromise of the right to a secret ballot. Electronic voting systems offer extensive accessibility modes designed for voters who are vision impaired and/or have limited mobility, such as reading the ballot aloud and supporting a sip/puff or two-paddle input device. As I discuss in more length in another comment it is quite possible to meet these needs using a paper ballot system (by use of a ballot marking machine or BMM which may be integrated into the tabulator), but direct recording electronic (DRE) systems are less expensive to operate and in some cases purchase. So, unfortunately, many election authorities, forced by HAVA to replace their equipment on an extremely limited budget, opted for the cheapest option. These election authorities now cannot afford a complete replacement of their voting systems and so may be "locked in" to a DRE system by their vendor. To improve US elections administration, it is imperative to address the severe funding limitations faced by most election authorities that may leave them little or no choice over the methods they use.
- guidance 7y ago
  Ha. Yeah, they always come up with some Real Plausible Explanation for the things that they do, and the naive types always buy it. Here's the reality: the electronic voting systems are being put in place because they are so easily hackable.

ctoth 7y ago

Posiwid thinking. The purpose of a system is what it does.

claudeganon 7y ago

Judging from Iowa, I imagine that some primary Sanders wins will claim to have been hacked by Russians. Democratic Party operatives were already doing false flag “Kremlin” stuff during the Doug Jones race in Alabama: https://thegrayzone.com/2019/01/23/how-new-york-times-scott-shane-covered-for-architects-of-a-shocking-false-flag-elections-campaign-in-alabama/ https://thegrayzone.com/2019/01/23/how-new-york-times-scott-...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

syshum 7y ago

>>- we know paper works (Canada/UK) so there must be an ulterior motive for pushing on tech solution so hard Works sure, efficient no, and largely one of the reason for low participation rates (though far from the only) That said none of the "tech" solutions that simply replace paper ballots at a polling place with a Touch Screen at a polling place would be what I desire from a "tech" solution to voting The rest of your points are largely true, though on the money never discount the power of incompetence when it comes to government, they way government contracts are "awarded" attracts the most incompetent people in any industry for if they were competent they would not need government contracts as the old saying goes... If you can... do If you cant.. Teach If you cant teach... Work for the government

vkou 7y ago
> efficient no, How is it not efficient? Elections Canada figures out how to count ballots in a few hours. 95% of the work of putting on an election is setting up, and running the polling stations. Using an electronic system is not going to make that 95% any easier. The only thing that would make it easier, is purely mail-in ballots, like in Washington State. > and largely one of the reason for low participation rates (though far from the only) Canada has a 5-15% higher voter turnout rate.
- syshum 7y ago
  >>How is it not efficient? It is not efficient for the people voting. More than 1 election I simply skipped because I did not want to find my polling place, stand in line, and then vote I want a Polling Place free Voting system
  - munk-a 7y ago
    Take this up with your government - electronic voting systems isn't the solution for this... making a huge deal over states when they cut the number of polling places is. It is super depressing that AZ[1] wasn't rung through the wringer by public outrage over their polling place shenanigans in the last election - both winners and losers should care about the accessibility of voting. Also it's about time for election day to become a national holiday - as a former Vermonter I always enjoyed participating in Town Meeting Day, giving people a day off to participate in government is a strictly good thing. 1. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/03/22/live-arizona-primary-coverage-presidential-preference-election/82096726/ https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - Swenrekcah 7y ago
    There are really easy solutions to this that other countries use, while keeping the safe and simple paper ballots. They have many polling places, enough that queues aren’t more than a few minutes at the most. They don’t make the polling places deliberately hard to get to. They hold elections on a weekend or a public holiday so the flow evens out over the course of the whole day.

colejohnson66 7y ago

> ...so there must be an ulterior motive for pushing on tech solution so hard I know someone in the industry who thinks software voting will solve the issues. It’s not ulterior motives; People actually believe it will help.

ngold 7y ago
Nothing beats the relaxation of voting by mail. Secure? Better then most.
- jcrawfordor 7y ago
  Keep in mind that mail-in ballots are counted by centralized OMR which generally provide the voter less assurance that their vote was successfully tabulated than a precinct tabulation system. For example, a mail-in ballot that is erroneously marked or overvoted (too many choices in a race) may need to be simply discarded for that question, while a precinct tabulator will reject such a ballot and return it to the voter for correction or to be spoiled (replaced). Mail-in voting systems also generally use a permit system to allow voters to check online that their ballot was received, but the need to maintain a secret ballot means that permits (actually the outer envelope usually) and ballots are separated at tabulation and so mail-in voters have less assurance that their ballot actually made it to the tabulator than voters in precinct tabulation jurisdictions where they insert it themselves. All of this said, the convenience and accessibility of mail-in voting is extremely beneficial and so an ideal solution may be a hybrid arrangement in which voters have the option of mailing in their ballots or submitting them for immediate tabulation at a precinct or early polling location. This system actually exists in several states although the "mail-in option" tends to actually be an extension of absentee voting (basically, you are allowed to vote absentee by mail even if you just want your ballot sent to your own house inside of the jurisdiction), but awareness of the mail-in voting option could be significantly improved.
morio 7y ago
Agreed, I see a lot of "if Estonia can do online voting, why can't we?" When I talk to some of these people, who work in the SV as software engineers, I realize not everyone has a wide ranging context on security and privacy. Not everyone religiously attends or watches DEFCON presentations... There is also a continuous push to make results available faster, basically instantly. The media is as guilty as everyone else here. Like we can't wait for a few days for results. Lastly reducing the amount of total paid workers and volunteers in the field to reduce costs likely looks like a shiny object in many managers eyes.

mzs 7y ago

UK and Canada are parliamentary systems so most ballots are one page. Most of those are just a single question with one selection permitted. In the US the ballot I get in my polling place depends on where I live and sometimes what party I am registered with. My ballot will likely be different than the next person in line. That ballot is many pages with numerous questions per page. And for about half of the questions I am permitted more than one selection. Machines are a good aid here for this system. Verifiable paper tallies are good for election security though.

roganartu 7y ago
What you describe is not that different from Australia's preferential system afaict, aside from people at one district potentially having different ballots. Australian ballots are not always simple, and you vote for your local representative so each district has a different one. Often you will have multiple ballots to complete, and some have the choice between above or below the line voting (where above you select some preferences and below you select all preferences, where all may be over 100 boxes). Parties often hand out small leaflets outside the voting locations with instructions for above the line voting, which is typically a list of around 6 preferences in order. Despite this, voting in Australia is done with paper, and we have live coverage with real-time counts on election night. Paper works quite well, computers really aren't necessary.
- mzs 7y ago
  Australia is always a curveball! I've wondered how a precinct counts those ballots, especially if some people vote below the line. I hope someone with experience comments here.
  - roganartu 7y ago
    You don't have to wonder, the counting process is well documented! :) https://www.aec.gov.au/voting/counting/ https://www.aec.gov.au/voting/counting/
    - 7y ago

pjc50 7y ago

The additional problem with election security is distinguishing between the parts of the corruption that are local, protected and untouchable; the parts done by foreign actors at the behest of the local untouchables; and the parts done by foreign actors on their own initiative against the local elites. There's no need to hack the votes themselves if you can just get a list of opposition voters and just cancel their registrations, for example: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/28/georgia-voting-rights-purge-stacey-abrams https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/28/georgia-voti...

jcrawfordor 7y ago

Introduction of electronic voting in the US was primarily motivated by the Help America Vote Act of 2002 which required that election authorities more effectively accommodate the needs of voters with sensory and mobility needs. Previously used election methods were generally inoperable by individuals with such disabilities unless they had a second person enter their votes for them, which is considered a compromise of the right to a secret ballot. Electronic voting systems offer extensive accessibility modes designed for voters who are vision impaired and/or have limited mobility, such as reading the ballot aloud and supporting a sip/puff or two-paddle input device. As I discuss in more length in another comment it is quite possible to meet these needs using a paper ballot system (by use of a ballot marking machine or BMM which may be integrated into the tabulator), but direct recording electronic (DRE) systems are less expensive to operate and in some cases purchase. So, unfortunately, many election authorities, forced by HAVA to replace their equipment on an extremely limited budget, opted for the cheapest option. These election authorities now cannot afford a complete replacement of their voting systems and so may be "locked in" to a DRE system by their vendor. To improve US elections administration, it is imperative to address the severe funding limitations faced by most election authorities that may leave them little or no choice over the methods they use.

guidance 7y ago
Ha. Yeah, they always come up with some Real Plausible Explanation for the things that they do, and the naive types always buy it. Here's the reality: the electronic voting systems are being put in place because they are so easily hackable.