6 ms·

It's pretty easy to "secure" the election. 1. Voter ID 2. Paper ballot electronically counted, paper stored as backup for any disputes or recounts. 3. No dig

It's pretty easy to "secure" the election. 1. Voter ID 2. Paper ballot electronically counted, paper stored as backup for any disputes or recounts. 3. No digital / computerized voting machines.

minikites 7y ago
Voter ID laws aren't about protecting elections, they're about disenfranchising voters: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-acknowledge-leveraging-voter-id-laws-for-political-gain.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-ackno... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/21/trump-adviser-republicans-voter-suppression https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/21/trump-advise...
- 1000units 7y ago
  It's about keeping non-citizens who don't have the right to vote from voting. Not implementing these laws diminishes the enfranchised.
  - josefresco 7y ago
    Nope, just another form of Poll tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_taxes_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_taxes_in_the_United_State...
    - 1000units 7y ago
      No, it isn't. However, let's assume it is. If you don't pay your (separate and presumably uncontroversial) federal taxes, you become a felon and legally disenfranchised. It becomes clear this is all a minor accounting detail.
  - wbronitsky 7y ago
    Do we have any evidence that non-citizens voting is an actual problem, or are you just spreading FUD? The GP has linked some well sourced articles about how voter ID laws have been used for primarily racist purposes in the US. Do you have any evidence that supports another narrative?
    - 1000units 7y ago
      Racist? Where the hell does that come from? Why would any particular race not be able to produce legal documentation confirming their identity at a poll booth?
      - wbronitsky 7y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_St... This is not a difficult topic, nor is it a very nuanced one; voter ID laws in the United States are and have been overwhelmingly racist. The answers to your questions are very much easily at hand, and we don't need to argue in ignorance. I understand it can be frustrating to see evidence that you are unprepared for; yet in order to have substantive conversations, we must be ready for such evidence, and consider it when it is present.
        1000units 7y ago
        I'm willing to have an earnest, extended conversation with you. On the other hand, you are immediately unwilling to personally support the basic premise of your proposed argument. This is very curious; perhaps you are a dishonest actor with a knowingly unsound argument. (This is my natural and rational suspicion, please take no offense!)
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        wbronitsky 7y ago
        Yes, as my posting history clearly indicates, I'm a schill for voting rights and equal representation.
        1000units 7y ago
        Me too, except the venue your personal household and the representation in the heart of your wife, whom I consider an attractive upgrade to mine. Or are there conditions here you're omitting that distinguish heroism from banditry? I say I am entitled to my franchise, sir!
- deadEndDave 7y ago
  If this was the case, then why do 17 other countries require ID when voting? Are they too "disenfranchising voters"?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_Identification_laws#Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_Identification_laws#Norw... I would make a note that a majority of the Nordic countries like Sweden, Norway, and Iceland ALL require some form of ID when voting.
  - kube-system 7y ago
    They also have national IDs, which simplifies the situation. Some of them even have compulsory national IDs, obviously that changes the dynamics of the situation entirely. And they also don't have the 24th amendment. I would bet the number of voters who are disenfranchised there is > 0
- alwaysanagenda 7y ago
  Yes, I've heard this bromide for a very long time -- my whole life, really. It's an outrageous lie. The only people it disenfranchises are those who would seek to stuff the ballot with illegal votes. Think of how many people it ENABLES by not having Voter ID. That issue is not discussed in these articles, it's just dismissed as there not being any evidence. Wow, great reporting! Zero zilch nada? Not a scrap? Do you think some of these journalists would do their job and look for some? It's not really hard to find. Look, I found one! I bet there's more, too. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/18/project_veritas_exposes_organized_voter_fraud_on_a_massive_scale.html https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/18/project_v... If your argument is that Voter ID disproportionately affects "minorities and people of color" then I would say you should re-evaluate the way you think about these people. I spent many years in some of the harshest places in the Bronx and I can tell you that the issues people face in these communities are not issues about getting government IDs. Moreover, would not the voice of minorities and people of color be MOST at risk? Shouldn't we do everything we can to make sure their votes are not canceled by illegal voting? PS, here is a short list of other countries that have Voter ID. Mexico India Greece Argentina Canada Brazil
- corporate_shi11 7y ago
  That's just propaganda based on speculation about what the "other side" intends with voter ID laws. People want voter ID laws so that non citizens can't vote. This is the reason why many developed countries around the world have some form of voter ID.
  - chishaku 7y ago
    Some Republicans Acknowledge Leveraging Voter ID Laws for Political Gain https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-acknowledge-leveraging-voter-id-laws-for-political-gain.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-ackno...
    - corporate_shi11 7y ago
      Of course the desires of a few obscure people are irrelevant to the actual merits of voter ID. There are some Democrats who support immigration because they hate white people and want to "Brown" the country. Does that mean immigration is automatically a bad thing? Of course not. Policies must be judged on their merits, not the reasons people support them.

It's pretty easy to "secure" the election. 1. Voter ID 2. Paper ballot electronically counted, paper stored as backup for any disputes or recounts. 3. No digital / computerized voting machines.

minikites 7y ago

Voter ID laws aren't about protecting elections, they're about disenfranchising voters: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-acknowledge-leveraging-voter-id-laws-for-political-gain.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-ackno... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/21/trump-adviser-republicans-voter-suppression https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/21/trump-advise...

1000units 7y ago
It's about keeping non-citizens who don't have the right to vote from voting. Not implementing these laws diminishes the enfranchised.
- josefresco 7y ago
  Nope, just another form of Poll tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_taxes_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_taxes_in_the_United_State...
  - 1000units 7y ago
    No, it isn't. However, let's assume it is. If you don't pay your (separate and presumably uncontroversial) federal taxes, you become a felon and legally disenfranchised. It becomes clear this is all a minor accounting detail.
- wbronitsky 7y ago
  Do we have any evidence that non-citizens voting is an actual problem, or are you just spreading FUD? The GP has linked some well sourced articles about how voter ID laws have been used for primarily racist purposes in the US. Do you have any evidence that supports another narrative?
  - 1000units 7y ago
    Racist? Where the hell does that come from? Why would any particular race not be able to produce legal documentation confirming their identity at a poll booth?
    - wbronitsky 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_St... This is not a difficult topic, nor is it a very nuanced one; voter ID laws in the United States are and have been overwhelmingly racist. The answers to your questions are very much easily at hand, and we don't need to argue in ignorance. I understand it can be frustrating to see evidence that you are unprepared for; yet in order to have substantive conversations, we must be ready for such evidence, and consider it when it is present.
      - 1000units 7y ago
        I'm willing to have an earnest, extended conversation with you. On the other hand, you are immediately unwilling to personally support the basic premise of your proposed argument. This is very curious; perhaps you are a dishonest actor with a knowingly unsound argument. (This is my natural and rational suspicion, please take no offense!)
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        wbronitsky 7y ago
        Yes, as my posting history clearly indicates, I'm a schill for voting rights and equal representation.
        1000units 7y ago
        Me too, except the venue your personal household and the representation in the heart of your wife, whom I consider an attractive upgrade to mine. Or are there conditions here you're omitting that distinguish heroism from banditry? I say I am entitled to my franchise, sir!
deadEndDave 7y ago
If this was the case, then why do 17 other countries require ID when voting? Are they too "disenfranchising voters"?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_Identification_laws#Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_Identification_laws#Norw... I would make a note that a majority of the Nordic countries like Sweden, Norway, and Iceland ALL require some form of ID when voting.
- kube-system 7y ago
  They also have national IDs, which simplifies the situation. Some of them even have compulsory national IDs, obviously that changes the dynamics of the situation entirely. And they also don't have the 24th amendment. I would bet the number of voters who are disenfranchised there is > 0
alwaysanagenda 7y ago
Yes, I've heard this bromide for a very long time -- my whole life, really. It's an outrageous lie. The only people it disenfranchises are those who would seek to stuff the ballot with illegal votes. Think of how many people it ENABLES by not having Voter ID. That issue is not discussed in these articles, it's just dismissed as there not being any evidence. Wow, great reporting! Zero zilch nada? Not a scrap? Do you think some of these journalists would do their job and look for some? It's not really hard to find. Look, I found one! I bet there's more, too. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/18/project_veritas_exposes_organized_voter_fraud_on_a_massive_scale.html https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/18/project_v... If your argument is that Voter ID disproportionately affects "minorities and people of color" then I would say you should re-evaluate the way you think about these people. I spent many years in some of the harshest places in the Bronx and I can tell you that the issues people face in these communities are not issues about getting government IDs. Moreover, would not the voice of minorities and people of color be MOST at risk? Shouldn't we do everything we can to make sure their votes are not canceled by illegal voting? PS, here is a short list of other countries that have Voter ID. Mexico India Greece Argentina Canada Brazil
corporate_shi11 7y ago
That's just propaganda based on speculation about what the "other side" intends with voter ID laws. People want voter ID laws so that non citizens can't vote. This is the reason why many developed countries around the world have some form of voter ID.
- chishaku 7y ago
  Some Republicans Acknowledge Leveraging Voter ID Laws for Political Gain https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-acknowledge-leveraging-voter-id-laws-for-political-gain.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-ackno...
  - corporate_shi11 7y ago
    Of course the desires of a few obscure people are irrelevant to the actual merits of voter ID. There are some Democrats who support immigration because they hate white people and want to "Brown" the country. Does that mean immigration is automatically a bad thing? Of course not. Policies must be judged on their merits, not the reasons people support them.