5 ms·

Religion could help you here, especially Christianity, since a fundamental insight is, as GK Chesterton puts it: "What's wrong with the world? I am." Without r

by yters 7y ago

Religion could help you here, especially Christianity, since a fundamental insight is, as GK Chesterton puts it: "What's wrong with the world? I am." Without realizing there is something fundamentally wrong with me, i.e. the narcissism aka pride, it is impossible to break free. This is the insight that allowed Dante to leave Hell in the Divine Comedy.

dnautics 7y ago
Isn't that still narcissistic?
- yters 7y ago
  I guess the idea is that since I'm not so great, best to look for something greater.
daenz 7y ago
But that goes against the current popular mantra of "I am great just the way I am and other people are the cause of my suffering."
btilly 7y ago
Oh yes. Believe in this thing that you don't believe in so that you can become a better person. Except that believing for that reason is simply telling yourself a lie. And professing faith based on a lie will make you a worse person. And yet this type of argument is often used by those who seek to spread the Gospel. See likewise Pascal's Wager. That said, there is no evidence that I am aware of for Christianity actually making people into better people. I have seen a number of attempts to prove it (for example to support faith based programs in jails), but when the same data was analyzed using normal statistical methodologies (for example not excluding people who left the program because of problems), the evidence disappeared.
- yters 7y ago
  See the western civilization you live. Largely the product of Christianity. OP can look into Christianity to see if they find it plausible. I am suggesting it is a good place to look, as the premise of Christianity is there is a greater reality than the self.
  - btilly 7y ago
    My understanding of the history is that Christianity took a free ride on a freight train caused by other things that in turn were not helped by Christianity. For example the early history of science shows that science took off exactly where and when conflict between different Christian sects left no religious authority with sufficient power to stop people from exploring dangerous ideas. And to the tired old argument that our society's cultural values are founded in Christianity, they are not. As a demonstration compare the many, many comments from Jesus against acquiring material wealth with how deeply established Capitalism is in our society. (Mark 10:25 on how hard it is for rich men to get into heaven comes to mind. Note that virtually all Americans are rich by world standards.) Our society, like all others that I know of, cherrypicks from religious texts to find support for what it wants to believe is true, rather than following those texts to the conclusions that are clearly there. (Whether those conclusions are good is a different story.) In fact most of our most cherished cultural values either predate Christianity (eg the Golden Rule) or postdate the Enlightenment (eg our rejection of slavery). It is hard to point to many that clearly were introduced by the Bible and have become adopted. (Note, just because it is in the Bible does not mean that it was introduced there. Again, see the Golden Rule as an example.)
    - yters 7y ago
      Those are certainly interesting claims! There are a number of arguments that science came about in western culture because of Christian belief in an intelligible and orderly creator, at odds with the other philosophies of that time (and arguably our own). I've also heard that the original invention of capitalism came about within the monastic university system that generated our modern university. Jesus does disparage seeking after material wealth, and the early church held all possessions in common to help the needy among them. But, he also tells the parable of the talents, which encourages people to make the most of what they have, and the one guy who doesn't is punished. So, I would say Jesus is anti-greed, not anti-capitalism. The apostle Paul goes onto say those who don't work should not eat, and that hardworking pastors should be financially rewarded. Jesus' golden rule is part of the beatitudes, which I understand to be unique among moral teachings. Foundational is the idea that all humans are created in the image of God, and should be loved accordingly. My understanding is chattel slavery came about after the enlightenment, perhaps due to the elimination of belief that all humans are created in the image of God. Instead we have the Darwinian view that humans form a continuum with animals, and thus implying humans can be treated like animals. I do believe the relationship between Christianity and western culture is more than you propose. If you want some interesting secular books to read on the topic, check out anything by Rodney Stark.
- yters 7y ago
  Also I personally know people whose lives have been completely changed after believing in Jesus. For example my uncle who used to be part of Hell's Angels. One day he decided to believe in Jesus, and now he runs a drug rehab, is a deacon at his church, and runs missionary trips to preach the Gospel to drug lords in Columbia. Or take my own parents, normal college kids from middle upper class non believing households. My dad chose to follow Jesus while in the Navy, and then he and my mom devoted the rest of their lives to missionary work. Or my wife's mother who grew up living with people doing drugs and living promiscuously, and generally not going anywhere. She and her siblings chose to follow Jesus, left their situation, founded a church, all attended college and some gained advanced degrees and PhDs, and my mother-in-law ran a lab at John Hopkins. My perception is Christianity can certainly change lives for the better, in dramatic ways.

by yters 7y ago

dnautics 7y ago

Isn't that still narcissistic?

yters 7y ago
I guess the idea is that since I'm not so great, best to look for something greater.

daenz 7y ago

But that goes against the current popular mantra of "I am great just the way I am and other people are the cause of my suffering."

btilly 7y ago

Oh yes. Believe in this thing that you don't believe in so that you can become a better person. Except that believing for that reason is simply telling yourself a lie. And professing faith based on a lie will make you a worse person. And yet this type of argument is often used by those who seek to spread the Gospel. See likewise Pascal's Wager. That said, there is no evidence that I am aware of for Christianity actually making people into better people. I have seen a number of attempts to prove it (for example to support faith based programs in jails), but when the same data was analyzed using normal statistical methodologies (for example not excluding people who left the program because of problems), the evidence disappeared.

yters 7y ago
See the western civilization you live. Largely the product of Christianity. OP can look into Christianity to see if they find it plausible. I am suggesting it is a good place to look, as the premise of Christianity is there is a greater reality than the self.
- btilly 7y ago
  My understanding of the history is that Christianity took a free ride on a freight train caused by other things that in turn were not helped by Christianity. For example the early history of science shows that science took off exactly where and when conflict between different Christian sects left no religious authority with sufficient power to stop people from exploring dangerous ideas. And to the tired old argument that our society's cultural values are founded in Christianity, they are not. As a demonstration compare the many, many comments from Jesus against acquiring material wealth with how deeply established Capitalism is in our society. (Mark 10:25 on how hard it is for rich men to get into heaven comes to mind. Note that virtually all Americans are rich by world standards.) Our society, like all others that I know of, cherrypicks from religious texts to find support for what it wants to believe is true, rather than following those texts to the conclusions that are clearly there. (Whether those conclusions are good is a different story.) In fact most of our most cherished cultural values either predate Christianity (eg the Golden Rule) or postdate the Enlightenment (eg our rejection of slavery). It is hard to point to many that clearly were introduced by the Bible and have become adopted. (Note, just because it is in the Bible does not mean that it was introduced there. Again, see the Golden Rule as an example.)
  - yters 7y ago
    Those are certainly interesting claims! There are a number of arguments that science came about in western culture because of Christian belief in an intelligible and orderly creator, at odds with the other philosophies of that time (and arguably our own). I've also heard that the original invention of capitalism came about within the monastic university system that generated our modern university. Jesus does disparage seeking after material wealth, and the early church held all possessions in common to help the needy among them. But, he also tells the parable of the talents, which encourages people to make the most of what they have, and the one guy who doesn't is punished. So, I would say Jesus is anti-greed, not anti-capitalism. The apostle Paul goes onto say those who don't work should not eat, and that hardworking pastors should be financially rewarded. Jesus' golden rule is part of the beatitudes, which I understand to be unique among moral teachings. Foundational is the idea that all humans are created in the image of God, and should be loved accordingly. My understanding is chattel slavery came about after the enlightenment, perhaps due to the elimination of belief that all humans are created in the image of God. Instead we have the Darwinian view that humans form a continuum with animals, and thus implying humans can be treated like animals. I do believe the relationship between Christianity and western culture is more than you propose. If you want some interesting secular books to read on the topic, check out anything by Rodney Stark.
yters 7y ago
Also I personally know people whose lives have been completely changed after believing in Jesus. For example my uncle who used to be part of Hell's Angels. One day he decided to believe in Jesus, and now he runs a drug rehab, is a deacon at his church, and runs missionary trips to preach the Gospel to drug lords in Columbia. Or take my own parents, normal college kids from middle upper class non believing households. My dad chose to follow Jesus while in the Navy, and then he and my mom devoted the rest of their lives to missionary work. Or my wife's mother who grew up living with people doing drugs and living promiscuously, and generally not going anywhere. She and her siblings chose to follow Jesus, left their situation, founded a church, all attended college and some gained advanced degrees and PhDs, and my mother-in-law ran a lab at John Hopkins. My perception is Christianity can certainly change lives for the better, in dramatic ways.