4 ms·

If you live in an area which regularly needs 4 wheel drive (snowstorms) and you have kids that need to go to school or go to various actives, having a suburban

If you live in an area which regularly needs 4 wheel drive (snowstorms) and you have kids that need to go to school or go to various actives, having a suburban makes sense. Think of a mini-van that can handle the elements. In this article I totally agree, that a Hummer, or type of vehicle that simply fulfills one's ego is a little silly and inherently selfish. However trying to say that all big SUV's are inherently selfish without looking at the reasons someone who has a family may purchase one is quite disingenuous.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Subaru spent the 1990s selling station wagons to people with those needs. You don't "need" a suburban to take the kids to school or soccer. That said, I don't think people's purchasing and lifestyle decisions should be driven strictly by need. That's basically what poverty is.
erkken 7y ago
I would say 99% of SUV owners do not need an SUV.
ahartmetz 7y ago
> 4WD Available in many types of cars. Being heavier and higher does nothing for mobility in snow. > and you have kids that need to go to school or go to various actives Do you sometimes think?
- Stubb 7y ago
  > Being heavier and higher does nothing for mobility in snow. Except for reducing the likelihood of getting high-centered.
- bryanlarsen 7y ago
  > Being heavier and higher does nothing for mobility in snow. They are two of the most important factors in mobility in snow. 1. Friction is directly proportional to the normal force, which is directly proportional to mass. 2. Height is massively important when driving on snow covered streets, especially those that see occasional traffic. To drive down the street you are acting as a snow plow, pushing any snow that has accumulated since the last car went through, plus or minus any difference in height between your car and theirs. That being said, we live in a city that gets lots of snow, have 2 kids and my wife needs the ability to get to the hospital without having to wait for a plow to come past. We don't need or want an SUV. My sister with 4 kids living on a farm does.
  - ahartmetz 7y ago
    1. The friction force that you need is also proportional to mass so mass does nothing in that regard. Usually the increase in friction force is sublinear wrt downforce so mass is actually bad. 2. I'll give you that height helps in high snow but how often is that important? People were driving in snow all the time before SUVs.
    - bryanlarsen 7y ago
      People regularly throw sandbags in their trunks to help with traction in snow. The mass helps. And when you're stuck, you can pour the sand out for grit.
      - aphextim 7y ago
        Keep a bag of kitty litter in the trunk for emergencies!
      - ahartmetz 7y ago
        It seems like that's for rear wheel drives - more mass fraction on the driven wheels.
- aphextim 7y ago
  >Available in many types of cars. Being heavier and higher does nothing for mobility in snow. Driving down a country road where it snowed 12 inches overnight....and there are drifts up to 2 feet in some parts in your 4WD car and let me know how plowing snow with your bumper goes.
pwinnski 7y ago
I grew up with station wagons. Nothing about snow or children mandate vehicle height.
- aphextim 7y ago
  Live down a country road where the county/city doesn't plow and your kid is still expected to make it to the "main road" to get on the bus. I do agree that the situation where you need this type of vehicle is quite niche and for the majority of people it's about status and not functionality.
  - tsherr 7y ago
    Once again, still don't need it. I grew up eight miles from the nearest paved road. I drove a Suzuki forsa in the winter. If the roads are too dangerous for a car, stay home.
- silon42 7y ago
  I have a small AWD crossover. Prefer it because it's shorter than a station wagon, for easier parking. Only raised an inch compared to a normal car (like a VW Golf). It can also pull a small trailer which is a weakness of most small EVs and even hybrids.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    Your modern crossover is the Corolla Wagon of 2020. In fact it probably has less interior space than a Corlla wagon of 1990. Something like a Ford Explorer is nothing like the Ford Explorer of 1990. If you look at who buys them and how they use them you'll probably find a lot in common with the Ford County Squire and Buick Roadmaster (the big wagons of their day). The author is attacking a straw-man. The SUV craze seems to have mostly run its course. The boring practical cars that normal people buy in huge numbers seem to have morphed into SUV dimensions but I think that's a result of modern safety requiring you to get a much bigger vehicle in order to have a similar seating position in the vehicle as cars of old, not some selfish desire to drive a land yacht.
magic5227 7y ago
Somehow the Europeans manage to bike families around town, including in snow, without a suburban just fine (as do I). https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3427493/Crown-Princess-Mary-braves-snow-cycle-children-school-bitterly-cold-Copenhagen.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3427493/Crown-Pri...
- riter 7y ago
  Have you driven around Idaho, Nebraska or Montana?
  - antisthenes 7y ago
    Those states contain 1.4% of the US population. It does nothing to explain the rising SUV/Truck trend of anywhere where it snows once every 5 years.
    - magic5227 7y ago
      And all the places without snow, like California.
obelos 7y ago
The practical issue is there isn't a good way to determine who “needs” these vehicles and who doesn't. If we as a society want to curtail excessive use of these life-averse machines, there has to be some hurdle to separate out those who “need” from those who merely “want” one. Restrict private ownership and urban operation of them without a CDL or a contractor's license, for example. People who need to use them for that one trip per year to haul new furniture from Ikea can still rent them as needed.
- aphextim 7y ago
  >Restrict private ownership and urban operation of them without a CDL or a contractor's license, for example. People who need to use them for that one trip per year to haul new furniture from Ikea can still rent them as needed. That is a great idea, in cities there shouldn't be a need to have these types of vehicles. I remember when I visited Germany back in 2005, it was strange not seeing a single truck anywhere! If you went to the country you would see trucks on farms and for people to personally use on their property. In the 21 days I was there we drove around from city to city in a rental car, and I think other than freight vehicles, I saw probably 4 truck type vehicles. Probably also due to the fact that Gasoline was the same price per liter as it was per gallon in the USA.
DubiousPusher 7y ago
I have a mid-size AWD crossover. It handles snow, ice and excessive rain far better than my old 4WD utility pickup that shares a drive train and chassis with most GM SUV behemoths.
timw4mail 7y ago
Tires are more important for snow than 4-wheel-drive.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  The snow tires vs AWD situation is more nuanced. I own three of the same old car. The FWD one is the one with snow tires and it still sucks compared to the AWD ones. The reason I put snow tires on it is so that it can hill climb better on my street. Snow tires are highly overrated for commuting conditions. Maybe they would be more worthwhile if they didn't salt the roads in my sate. For the typical slush you get when a few inched of snow meets road salt then AWD wins every damn time. Traction is not dominated by the coefficient of friction but by your tires ability to shed the "thick water" they're driving through. A snow tire is not going to be better enough at this than an all season tire (alright, maybe a little since the tread is a tiny bit more aggressive leaving more room for slush) to make up for the fact that the front tires have to do all the going and all the steering. You will be breaking traction left and right every time you touch the gas. Two tires simply do not have the traction to keep you moving at traffic speed and keep you pointed where you want when they are saturated with slush. I would almost go so far as to say that snow tires and FWD is more dangerous in "slushmageddon and rolling traffic jamb behind the plow" type commuting conditions (e.g. Boston this morning) than AWD and all seasons simple because you will likely need to drive closer to the limit of traction on your front tires in order to maintain the same forward speed. I have no doubt that snow tires stop and turn great on a sheet of ice but that is not what real world snow driving conditions are like. Obviously AWD and snow tires would be the best combo but forced to choose one I'll choose AWD every time.
  - timw4mail 7y ago
    Do they not plow the road where you drive? Just put salt on top of it? Tread depth is also an important factor, which is basically a freebie with snow tires, as they usually have more tread depth to start with than an all-season tire. Regardless of drive system, if you feel you are at the limit of your traction keeping up with traffic, you are going too fast.
- 7y ago
tsherr 7y ago
You don't need four wheel drive for snowstorms. Trust me, I've lived in Canada for 45 years and we've never had a four wheel drive. And I've driven (safely) in a lot of snowstorms.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

Subaru spent the 1990s selling station wagons to people with those needs. You don't "need" a suburban to take the kids to school or soccer. That said, I don't think people's purchasing and lifestyle decisions should be driven strictly by need. That's basically what poverty is.

erkken 7y ago

I would say 99% of SUV owners do not need an SUV.

ahartmetz 7y ago

> 4WD Available in many types of cars. Being heavier and higher does nothing for mobility in snow. > and you have kids that need to go to school or go to various actives Do you sometimes think?

Stubb 7y ago
> Being heavier and higher does nothing for mobility in snow. Except for reducing the likelihood of getting high-centered.
bryanlarsen 7y ago
> Being heavier and higher does nothing for mobility in snow. They are two of the most important factors in mobility in snow. 1. Friction is directly proportional to the normal force, which is directly proportional to mass. 2. Height is massively important when driving on snow covered streets, especially those that see occasional traffic. To drive down the street you are acting as a snow plow, pushing any snow that has accumulated since the last car went through, plus or minus any difference in height between your car and theirs. That being said, we live in a city that gets lots of snow, have 2 kids and my wife needs the ability to get to the hospital without having to wait for a plow to come past. We don't need or want an SUV. My sister with 4 kids living on a farm does.
- ahartmetz 7y ago
  1. The friction force that you need is also proportional to mass so mass does nothing in that regard. Usually the increase in friction force is sublinear wrt downforce so mass is actually bad. 2. I'll give you that height helps in high snow but how often is that important? People were driving in snow all the time before SUVs.
  - bryanlarsen 7y ago
    People regularly throw sandbags in their trunks to help with traction in snow. The mass helps. And when you're stuck, you can pour the sand out for grit.
    - aphextim 7y ago
      Keep a bag of kitty litter in the trunk for emergencies!
    - ahartmetz 7y ago
      It seems like that's for rear wheel drives - more mass fraction on the driven wheels.
aphextim 7y ago
>Available in many types of cars. Being heavier and higher does nothing for mobility in snow. Driving down a country road where it snowed 12 inches overnight....and there are drifts up to 2 feet in some parts in your 4WD car and let me know how plowing snow with your bumper goes.

pwinnski 7y ago

I grew up with station wagons. Nothing about snow or children mandate vehicle height.

aphextim 7y ago
Live down a country road where the county/city doesn't plow and your kid is still expected to make it to the "main road" to get on the bus. I do agree that the situation where you need this type of vehicle is quite niche and for the majority of people it's about status and not functionality.
- tsherr 7y ago
  Once again, still don't need it. I grew up eight miles from the nearest paved road. I drove a Suzuki forsa in the winter. If the roads are too dangerous for a car, stay home.
silon42 7y ago
I have a small AWD crossover. Prefer it because it's shorter than a station wagon, for easier parking. Only raised an inch compared to a normal car (like a VW Golf). It can also pull a small trailer which is a weakness of most small EVs and even hybrids.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Your modern crossover is the Corolla Wagon of 2020. In fact it probably has less interior space than a Corlla wagon of 1990. Something like a Ford Explorer is nothing like the Ford Explorer of 1990. If you look at who buys them and how they use them you'll probably find a lot in common with the Ford County Squire and Buick Roadmaster (the big wagons of their day). The author is attacking a straw-man. The SUV craze seems to have mostly run its course. The boring practical cars that normal people buy in huge numbers seem to have morphed into SUV dimensions but I think that's a result of modern safety requiring you to get a much bigger vehicle in order to have a similar seating position in the vehicle as cars of old, not some selfish desire to drive a land yacht.

magic5227 7y ago

Somehow the Europeans manage to bike families around town, including in snow, without a suburban just fine (as do I). https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3427493/Crown-Princess-Mary-braves-snow-cycle-children-school-bitterly-cold-Copenhagen.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3427493/Crown-Pri...

riter 7y ago
Have you driven around Idaho, Nebraska or Montana?
- antisthenes 7y ago
  Those states contain 1.4% of the US population. It does nothing to explain the rising SUV/Truck trend of anywhere where it snows once every 5 years.
  - magic5227 7y ago
    And all the places without snow, like California.

obelos 7y ago

The practical issue is there isn't a good way to determine who “needs” these vehicles and who doesn't. If we as a society want to curtail excessive use of these life-averse machines, there has to be some hurdle to separate out those who “need” from those who merely “want” one. Restrict private ownership and urban operation of them without a CDL or a contractor's license, for example. People who need to use them for that one trip per year to haul new furniture from Ikea can still rent them as needed.

aphextim 7y ago
>Restrict private ownership and urban operation of them without a CDL or a contractor's license, for example. People who need to use them for that one trip per year to haul new furniture from Ikea can still rent them as needed. That is a great idea, in cities there shouldn't be a need to have these types of vehicles. I remember when I visited Germany back in 2005, it was strange not seeing a single truck anywhere! If you went to the country you would see trucks on farms and for people to personally use on their property. In the 21 days I was there we drove around from city to city in a rental car, and I think other than freight vehicles, I saw probably 4 truck type vehicles. Probably also due to the fact that Gasoline was the same price per liter as it was per gallon in the USA.

DubiousPusher 7y ago

I have a mid-size AWD crossover. It handles snow, ice and excessive rain far better than my old 4WD utility pickup that shares a drive train and chassis with most GM SUV behemoths.

timw4mail 7y ago

Tires are more important for snow than 4-wheel-drive.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
The snow tires vs AWD situation is more nuanced. I own three of the same old car. The FWD one is the one with snow tires and it still sucks compared to the AWD ones. The reason I put snow tires on it is so that it can hill climb better on my street. Snow tires are highly overrated for commuting conditions. Maybe they would be more worthwhile if they didn't salt the roads in my sate. For the typical slush you get when a few inched of snow meets road salt then AWD wins every damn time. Traction is not dominated by the coefficient of friction but by your tires ability to shed the "thick water" they're driving through. A snow tire is not going to be better enough at this than an all season tire (alright, maybe a little since the tread is a tiny bit more aggressive leaving more room for slush) to make up for the fact that the front tires have to do all the going and all the steering. You will be breaking traction left and right every time you touch the gas. Two tires simply do not have the traction to keep you moving at traffic speed and keep you pointed where you want when they are saturated with slush. I would almost go so far as to say that snow tires and FWD is more dangerous in "slushmageddon and rolling traffic jamb behind the plow" type commuting conditions (e.g. Boston this morning) than AWD and all seasons simple because you will likely need to drive closer to the limit of traction on your front tires in order to maintain the same forward speed. I have no doubt that snow tires stop and turn great on a sheet of ice but that is not what real world snow driving conditions are like. Obviously AWD and snow tires would be the best combo but forced to choose one I'll choose AWD every time.
- timw4mail 7y ago
  Do they not plow the road where you drive? Just put salt on top of it? Tread depth is also an important factor, which is basically a freebie with snow tires, as they usually have more tread depth to start with than an all-season tire. Regardless of drive system, if you feel you are at the limit of your traction keeping up with traffic, you are going too fast.
7y ago

tsherr 7y ago

You don't need four wheel drive for snowstorms. Trust me, I've lived in Canada for 45 years and we've never had a four wheel drive. And I've driven (safely) in a lot of snowstorms.