5 ms·

I've had the opposite experience. I had a job where half the floor plan was cubicals and half was open plan where you had groups of 2-3 people in a sort of cov

I've had the opposite experience. I had a job where half the floor plan was cubicals and half was open plan where you had groups of 2-3 people in a sort of cove. I started in the cubicle section. And I hated my job. Every day felt draining to the soul. I felt invisible and isolated and I hated it. I was making no progress in the organization. I'd constantly find excuses to leave my desk just to see another human face. My desk was a cluttered mess and I just hated my life. We got some new hires, so I got to shuffle over to one of the coves. It was like getting a totally different job where all of a sudden I loved coming into work. I loved seeing people. We communicated efficiently, I organized my space effectively because it was so visible to everyone. I could catch errors others were making as they were going and pretty soon they'd come line up to get help on stuff. We were so much more efficient than letting people fail for longer, run up the client bill, and then have to redo everything. The lines of communication were opened up with me acting as a hub of sorts and so we came up with a lot of innovations in that time that made our processes more efficient. And when we had to do overtime, it was a communal activity. The feeling was that of a team. Open concept is my jam.

miscPerson 7y ago
The second sounds like hub-and-spoke, where you have pods of 2-4 people clustered around common area. (I enjoy that as well.) Open concept is usually more like 20-40 in a giant pen without any sort of separation or soundproofing between. Studies suggest hub-and-spoke is good; open concept is high density feedlots applied to white collar work.
r0ckstr 7y ago
I am curious as what type of work did you do at that job. "I could catch errors others were making as they were going" sounds as something I would not be able to do as a developer.
falcolas 7y ago
Another anecdata: I'm in an open office right now, and the area that I'm in could ostensibly be considered to be a "cove", with about 6 people. I hate it. I'm not on the same calls, so people being in calls messes with my flow. They're not on my same calls, so I either have to move to a hot and sticky phone booth, or leave the building entirely (I've taken a few calls in my car) since I work on projects that aren't ready for the office rumor mill. I really miss my cubicle. I could stand up and have a conversation, or sit down and be in relative peace. The sound and visual isolation offered by those fabric walls can't be overstated.
ergothus 7y ago
One of my offices, after vocal complaints about the open office plan, did a quick survey. Roughly 50% were fine with the open office plan. (this office was mainly devs, HR, recruiting, and data scientists) As someone that is drained by social interactions (I _like_ them, but afterwards I'm drained, not energized), that is easily distracted by movement, and who can't hear conversations in the background without instinctively trying to focus on what is being said, open offices are hell for me. I was utterly mystified by the "other" 50%. How do you just "choose" what to focus on? That's like controlling a reflex. I knew there were extraverts, but SO MANY?!
- MandieD 7y ago
  Trying to tune out the background conversations is especially hard when most of them are in a language you speak usefully, but not fluently.
  - usrusr 7y ago
    Works the same in the reverse case: I'm a native speaker in the office language, but many of my coworkers are not. One of them is impossible for me to tune out, only because of a difficult accent (his grammar etc are actually better than the ones that I can tune out). It feels as if a mental background process for flagging keywords or something like that keeps bailing out with an exception, "sorry consciousness, you take over". I discovered that I can limit the effect with positive framing as a naturally occurring experiment that grants an interesting window into the inner workings of the mind. At least this way, the distraction does not get compounded by annoyance (which also would be quite unfair). I can only imagine how bad it must be when everyone around you causes that kind of escalation to consciousness.
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  Can't find it anymore, but I could swear there was a study that recently hit the HN front page that found that everyone's productivity objectively takes a hit in a distracting environment. But, subjectively, extraverts perceive themselves as being more productive, while introverts don't.
kylec 7y ago
Extroverts: I feel invisible and isolated and I hate it. Introverts: I feel invisible and isolated and I love it.
- mjevans 7y ago
  More like: Introvert: Anyone could (and has in the past) interrupted my thoughts in similar situations, I need to be ready. Introvert: What are they saying? Does that involve me or an area I should be concerned about? Introvert: There's someone within speaking voice 'ear-shot' and/or eye-contact range, lets work on that task together.
  - anthonypasq 7y ago
    im not sure what any of this has to do with introversion
- bjornjajajaja 7y ago
  No one is 100% polarized introvert or extrovert though. I’m willing to be t silent environments are more conducive to productivity. Whomever designs those open spaces watches way too much Fixer Upper. That or not enough — the open spaces are communal but there are ALSO spaces for people to retreat into their space.
  - kyuudou 7y ago
    >I’m willing to be t silent environments are more conducive to productivity. It's always worked for libraries, I think. Why not offices?
    - thawaway1837 7y ago
      Aren’t libraries usually open spaces? But they enforce strict silence. So you can go tap on anyone’s shoulder but if you want to have a conversation you need to head to a non working area. That sounds like the best idea to me. Open office plan, but no loud conversations are allowed. You need to maintain strict library like silences. However, you also provide enough breakout rooms or non quiet areas where people can head over to to have a discussion.
imgabe 7y ago
"cove of 2-3 people" isn't really open plan. Working next to a couple people who you'll probably end up getting friendly with if they aren't jerks is very different from working in an ocean of 50 people.
silicon2401 7y ago
This conversation is a great example of the differences in personalities, and why there is no single solution for everybody. As a rather misanthropic person, my preference is to see other human beings (that aren't loved ones) very rarely, ideally never. I don't want to see, hear, smell, etc people. Until I'm fully remote, cubicles are the best scenario I've found. They let me feel "invisible and isolated" and I love it. If I could build out my cubicle to be a complete box with opaque walls and soundproofing, I'd do so in a heartbeat. Hopefully decision-making people can become aware that there's a huge spectrum of preferences, and work to accommodate them rather than impose preferences on others.
kyuudou 7y ago
As has been alluded to in previous incarnations of this article topic and subsequent HN commentary, for a typical IT/software job the ideal I think is to either have functional teams in their own closed open area or to have such an area along with a quiet cube or office (even if it's "hoteled") for work that requires long periods of uninterrupted focus. An great alternative is just an open office where remote workers meet a few times a week to collaborate then go back home to get stuff done. Somehow there has to be a mix because an open office space with all the yackety yak that comes with it is practically impossible to get any real individual work done. I end up making progress during quiet times at home after hours or when I take a day off/sick leave. Not ideal. Where is our 21st century Jetsons future, dammit. It's not supposed to be worse.
caconym_ 7y ago
I feel invisible and isolated in my open plan office anyway, but also exposed in all the ways that spike my anxiety and keep me from getting work done. It's the worst of both worlds. I think the former aspect probably has more to do with the job itself than the physical working environment ... it's hard to walk away from what I get paid, but one of these days I'll probably have to.
johannes1234321 7y ago
The small group - if they work at least on related things - can be valuable. Those huge areas of desk next to desk as in modern "startup" (in quotes since it includes Facebook etc.) open offices are a way different story, though.

miscPerson 7y ago

The second sounds like hub-and-spoke, where you have pods of 2-4 people clustered around common area. (I enjoy that as well.) Open concept is usually more like 20-40 in a giant pen without any sort of separation or soundproofing between. Studies suggest hub-and-spoke is good; open concept is high density feedlots applied to white collar work.

r0ckstr 7y ago

I am curious as what type of work did you do at that job. "I could catch errors others were making as they were going" sounds as something I would not be able to do as a developer.

falcolas 7y ago

Another anecdata: I'm in an open office right now, and the area that I'm in could ostensibly be considered to be a "cove", with about 6 people. I hate it. I'm not on the same calls, so people being in calls messes with my flow. They're not on my same calls, so I either have to move to a hot and sticky phone booth, or leave the building entirely (I've taken a few calls in my car) since I work on projects that aren't ready for the office rumor mill. I really miss my cubicle. I could stand up and have a conversation, or sit down and be in relative peace. The sound and visual isolation offered by those fabric walls can't be overstated.

ergothus 7y ago

One of my offices, after vocal complaints about the open office plan, did a quick survey. Roughly 50% were fine with the open office plan. (this office was mainly devs, HR, recruiting, and data scientists) As someone that is drained by social interactions (I _like_ them, but afterwards I'm drained, not energized), that is easily distracted by movement, and who can't hear conversations in the background without instinctively trying to focus on what is being said, open offices are hell for me. I was utterly mystified by the "other" 50%. How do you just "choose" what to focus on? That's like controlling a reflex. I knew there were extraverts, but SO MANY?!

MandieD 7y ago
Trying to tune out the background conversations is especially hard when most of them are in a language you speak usefully, but not fluently.
- usrusr 7y ago
  Works the same in the reverse case: I'm a native speaker in the office language, but many of my coworkers are not. One of them is impossible for me to tune out, only because of a difficult accent (his grammar etc are actually better than the ones that I can tune out). It feels as if a mental background process for flagging keywords or something like that keeps bailing out with an exception, "sorry consciousness, you take over". I discovered that I can limit the effect with positive framing as a naturally occurring experiment that grants an interesting window into the inner workings of the mind. At least this way, the distraction does not get compounded by annoyance (which also would be quite unfair). I can only imagine how bad it must be when everyone around you causes that kind of escalation to consciousness.
mumblemumble 7y ago
Can't find it anymore, but I could swear there was a study that recently hit the HN front page that found that everyone's productivity objectively takes a hit in a distracting environment. But, subjectively, extraverts perceive themselves as being more productive, while introverts don't.

kylec 7y ago

Extroverts: I feel invisible and isolated and I hate it. Introverts: I feel invisible and isolated and I love it.

mjevans 7y ago
More like: Introvert: Anyone could (and has in the past) interrupted my thoughts in similar situations, I need to be ready. Introvert: What are they saying? Does that involve me or an area I should be concerned about? Introvert: There's someone within speaking voice 'ear-shot' and/or eye-contact range, lets work on that task together.
- anthonypasq 7y ago
  im not sure what any of this has to do with introversion
bjornjajajaja 7y ago
No one is 100% polarized introvert or extrovert though. I’m willing to be t silent environments are more conducive to productivity. Whomever designs those open spaces watches way too much Fixer Upper. That or not enough — the open spaces are communal but there are ALSO spaces for people to retreat into their space.
- kyuudou 7y ago
  >I’m willing to be t silent environments are more conducive to productivity. It's always worked for libraries, I think. Why not offices?
  - thawaway1837 7y ago
    Aren’t libraries usually open spaces? But they enforce strict silence. So you can go tap on anyone’s shoulder but if you want to have a conversation you need to head to a non working area. That sounds like the best idea to me. Open office plan, but no loud conversations are allowed. You need to maintain strict library like silences. However, you also provide enough breakout rooms or non quiet areas where people can head over to to have a discussion.

imgabe 7y ago

"cove of 2-3 people" isn't really open plan. Working next to a couple people who you'll probably end up getting friendly with if they aren't jerks is very different from working in an ocean of 50 people.

silicon2401 7y ago

This conversation is a great example of the differences in personalities, and why there is no single solution for everybody. As a rather misanthropic person, my preference is to see other human beings (that aren't loved ones) very rarely, ideally never. I don't want to see, hear, smell, etc people. Until I'm fully remote, cubicles are the best scenario I've found. They let me feel "invisible and isolated" and I love it. If I could build out my cubicle to be a complete box with opaque walls and soundproofing, I'd do so in a heartbeat. Hopefully decision-making people can become aware that there's a huge spectrum of preferences, and work to accommodate them rather than impose preferences on others.

kyuudou 7y ago

As has been alluded to in previous incarnations of this article topic and subsequent HN commentary, for a typical IT/software job the ideal I think is to either have functional teams in their own closed open area or to have such an area along with a quiet cube or office (even if it's "hoteled") for work that requires long periods of uninterrupted focus. An great alternative is just an open office where remote workers meet a few times a week to collaborate then go back home to get stuff done. Somehow there has to be a mix because an open office space with all the yackety yak that comes with it is practically impossible to get any real individual work done. I end up making progress during quiet times at home after hours or when I take a day off/sick leave. Not ideal. Where is our 21st century Jetsons future, dammit. It's not supposed to be worse.

caconym_ 7y ago

I feel invisible and isolated in my open plan office anyway, but also exposed in all the ways that spike my anxiety and keep me from getting work done. It's the worst of both worlds. I think the former aspect probably has more to do with the job itself than the physical working environment ... it's hard to walk away from what I get paid, but one of these days I'll probably have to.

johannes1234321 7y ago

The small group - if they work at least on related things - can be valuable. Those huge areas of desk next to desk as in modern "startup" (in quotes since it includes Facebook etc.) open offices are a way different story, though.