12 ms·

The other side of this is that a very large percentage of folks in our industry seem to have social anxiety-spectrum issues. Folks without those don't seem to

The other side of this is that a very large percentage of folks in our industry seem to have social anxiety-spectrum issues. Folks without those don't seem to understand how much energy is being burned through just being out in the open and on display for all of your coworkers. It's not something I, personally, have control over. The time I've spent in "open concept" work places, I finish every day frustrated with my ability to accomplish tasks and physically and emotionally drained. That takes a very serious toll over time. I've moved on from jobs due to this type of work environment.

turk73 7y ago
Totally agree. Open concept at my place is beyond ridiculous. I'm not a zoo animal. Zero privacy, bathrooms are disgusting, kitchen is disgusting. I just give up. I work at home as much as possible.
JohnFen 7y ago
> I've moved on from jobs due to this type of work environment. Me too. The last job I had was with a top tier company whose products nearly everyone reading this owns and uses. The open office workspace is why I quit. It was an intolerable hell.
- wikibob 7y ago
  Fruit company?
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    No, but I'm not going to identify the company.
carlmr 7y ago
>a very large percentage of folks in our industry seem to have social anxiety-spectrum issues. It seems like it, I wouldn't like a cubicle. I think open offices aren't ideal. I'd prefer a team room, but between solitude and open I pick open.
switch007 7y ago
> The other side of this is that a very large percentage of folks in our industry seem to have social anxiety-spectrum issues. I've tried to search for studies in the past but failed at google (after hearing numerous managers repeat many times that "loads of people in IT are on the spectrum"). If many (non medical) managers have said it, there must be easily accessible studies, surely.
Enginerrrd 7y ago
I've had the opposite experience. I had a job where half the floor plan was cubicals and half was open plan where you had groups of 2-3 people in a sort of cove. I started in the cubicle section. And I hated my job. Every day felt draining to the soul. I felt invisible and isolated and I hated it. I was making no progress in the organization. I'd constantly find excuses to leave my desk just to see another human face. My desk was a cluttered mess and I just hated my life. We got some new hires, so I got to shuffle over to one of the coves. It was like getting a totally different job where all of a sudden I loved coming into work. I loved seeing people. We communicated efficiently, I organized my space effectively because it was so visible to everyone. I could catch errors others were making as they were going and pretty soon they'd come line up to get help on stuff. We were so much more efficient than letting people fail for longer, run up the client bill, and then have to redo everything. The lines of communication were opened up with me acting as a hub of sorts and so we came up with a lot of innovations in that time that made our processes more efficient. And when we had to do overtime, it was a communal activity. The feeling was that of a team. Open concept is my jam.
- miscPerson 7y ago
  The second sounds like hub-and-spoke, where you have pods of 2-4 people clustered around common area. (I enjoy that as well.) Open concept is usually more like 20-40 in a giant pen without any sort of separation or soundproofing between. Studies suggest hub-and-spoke is good; open concept is high density feedlots applied to white collar work.
- r0ckstr 7y ago
  I am curious as what type of work did you do at that job. "I could catch errors others were making as they were going" sounds as something I would not be able to do as a developer.
- falcolas 7y ago
  Another anecdata: I'm in an open office right now, and the area that I'm in could ostensibly be considered to be a "cove", with about 6 people. I hate it. I'm not on the same calls, so people being in calls messes with my flow. They're not on my same calls, so I either have to move to a hot and sticky phone booth, or leave the building entirely (I've taken a few calls in my car) since I work on projects that aren't ready for the office rumor mill. I really miss my cubicle. I could stand up and have a conversation, or sit down and be in relative peace. The sound and visual isolation offered by those fabric walls can't be overstated.
loopz 7y ago
The concept of "Social anxiety" really doesn't explain it fully IMHO. The concept may even sound like a label of being wimpy, retarded or scared, which is probably not true at all - or can be made true/untrue depending on circumstances! It's more about what kind of loads your brain are optimized for (when feeling "drained" after social exposure for a full day), being exceedingly more sensitive than most, maybe even exposing more shenanigans at earliest opportunity. What helps is being encouraged to decide yourself, taking matters in your own hands. Making decision yourself to go into an unfamiliar environment, while having opportunity to withdraw etc. would be empowering and allow for adjustments by the individual herself. This requires a platform in the environment though, which takes time for everybody to adjust to. However such general empowerment in the environment benefits all in the end. These are not an unfounded view or wishful thoughts in my experience, though people will have different experiences.
- dualboot 7y ago
  That's a very narrow view of the world, friend. It's dangerous to presume that you have such a deep and wide perspective that you can instantly diagnose something so thoroughly.
  - loopz 7y ago
    Sorry for thinking and sharing my experience. Just go back to being socially anxious then! Nevermind other explanation models or opportunities. I've updated my comment to attempt to clarify the meaning better, in case that was miscommunicated.
    - dualboot 7y ago
      The older I get, the more I realize that we really haven't figured out anything at all. We just make up or prescribe to a set of rules that help us cope with that as best as possible.
      - loopz 7y ago
        That's intentionally or unintentionally very insightful. We are the product of our environment, which is infinitely more powerful than us, so we have to adapt it wisely or perish.
ta_4661 7y ago
i've lived with chronic depersonalization and the resultant anxiety which had kept me hamstrung in my one and only job after a couple personal breakthroughs i finally gained the confidence to earn a promotion to my very modest dream role, only to find out a couple months in that we'd be transferring to open plan after the move i almost immediately started experiencing esteem-crumbling health issues caused by the constant anxiety, i avoided growth opportunities because i couldn't muster the energy to even volunteer, i failed to cultivate proper relationships with any of my coworkers and before long my destructive fight-or-flight tendencies were back in full force i tried being completely transparent about my problems in an attempt to save this job id wanted for so long, jumped through hoops like seeing a company appointed therapist, tried and failed to arrange more flexible working situations and so on eventually i provided enough dirt on file for them to force me to resign, so i'm now unemployed in my 30s with no references i have any confidence in and enough shame and guilt to put me in the ground should my extreme mental fog ever clear again knowing how deep mental issues can run i'm so sad knowing people are having their careers effectively curtailed by something as stupid as this in an industry that should understand these problems better than any other
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- krn 7y ago
  > eventually i provided enough dirt on file for them to force me to resign, so i'm now unemployed in my 30s with no references i have any confidence in and enough shame and guilt to put me in the ground should my extreme mental fog ever clear again Have you considered working for a remote-only company, such as GitLab, DuckDuckGo or Buffer? For someone with a chronic depersonalization / derealization disorder a formal work environment should be a non-starter. The constant self-reflection around other people consumes the entire energy and leaves one unable to perform.
  - ta_4661 7y ago
    i have no formal qualifications to speak of and i was in operations so my knowledge is already years out of date, all over the place and not at all relevant to any business operating that way i've struggled learning anything since i left because as bad as people affect me the less time i spend around them the worse the mental fog gets, which makes my ability to focus on any one topic pretty much non-existent attaining the delicate balance i require to feel functional is not happening in any formal environment, you are completely right about that and i've come to accept it over the past few years apologies for not getting back to you before, got stuck in a mental loop just writing a response.. sounds like you know exactly what i'm talking about so i appreciate it
sharadov 7y ago
It absolutely sucked for me whenever I used to try and code, if I was deep in thought and looking away and someone passed by, they would nod in my direction or get my attention some other way ( sorry am thinking, not in a mood to socialize)! Thankfully when I needed to get work done, the company allowed remote work. Working remote for the last 2.5 years, it's going to be hard when I have to go back to a real office.
TeMPOraL 7y ago
100% this, you've described perfectly how I feel. It's not something I have control over either. Even in high school, I've had to close the doors to my room to be able to focus on learning. I can work in a team on a common task requiring constant interaction (e.g. brainstorming, negotiating, designing), but if a task requires individual focus (like programming), I have to expend significant emotional energy on managing my anxiety if my work area is in the open. I know I'm not alone in this; the last time I worked in an office, we were technically in a semi-open space (8 people in a room), but the desks and monitors got subtly but quickly rearranged to block everyone's line-of-sight to everyone else.

turk73 7y ago

Totally agree. Open concept at my place is beyond ridiculous. I'm not a zoo animal. Zero privacy, bathrooms are disgusting, kitchen is disgusting. I just give up. I work at home as much as possible.

JohnFen 7y ago

> I've moved on from jobs due to this type of work environment. Me too. The last job I had was with a top tier company whose products nearly everyone reading this owns and uses. The open office workspace is why I quit. It was an intolerable hell.

wikibob 7y ago
Fruit company?
- JohnFen 7y ago
  No, but I'm not going to identify the company.

carlmr 7y ago

>a very large percentage of folks in our industry seem to have social anxiety-spectrum issues. It seems like it, I wouldn't like a cubicle. I think open offices aren't ideal. I'd prefer a team room, but between solitude and open I pick open.

switch007 7y ago

> The other side of this is that a very large percentage of folks in our industry seem to have social anxiety-spectrum issues. I've tried to search for studies in the past but failed at google (after hearing numerous managers repeat many times that "loads of people in IT are on the spectrum"). If many (non medical) managers have said it, there must be easily accessible studies, surely.

Enginerrrd 7y ago

I've had the opposite experience. I had a job where half the floor plan was cubicals and half was open plan where you had groups of 2-3 people in a sort of cove. I started in the cubicle section. And I hated my job. Every day felt draining to the soul. I felt invisible and isolated and I hated it. I was making no progress in the organization. I'd constantly find excuses to leave my desk just to see another human face. My desk was a cluttered mess and I just hated my life. We got some new hires, so I got to shuffle over to one of the coves. It was like getting a totally different job where all of a sudden I loved coming into work. I loved seeing people. We communicated efficiently, I organized my space effectively because it was so visible to everyone. I could catch errors others were making as they were going and pretty soon they'd come line up to get help on stuff. We were so much more efficient than letting people fail for longer, run up the client bill, and then have to redo everything. The lines of communication were opened up with me acting as a hub of sorts and so we came up with a lot of innovations in that time that made our processes more efficient. And when we had to do overtime, it was a communal activity. The feeling was that of a team. Open concept is my jam.

miscPerson 7y ago
The second sounds like hub-and-spoke, where you have pods of 2-4 people clustered around common area. (I enjoy that as well.) Open concept is usually more like 20-40 in a giant pen without any sort of separation or soundproofing between. Studies suggest hub-and-spoke is good; open concept is high density feedlots applied to white collar work.
r0ckstr 7y ago
I am curious as what type of work did you do at that job. "I could catch errors others were making as they were going" sounds as something I would not be able to do as a developer.
falcolas 7y ago
Another anecdata: I'm in an open office right now, and the area that I'm in could ostensibly be considered to be a "cove", with about 6 people. I hate it. I'm not on the same calls, so people being in calls messes with my flow. They're not on my same calls, so I either have to move to a hot and sticky phone booth, or leave the building entirely (I've taken a few calls in my car) since I work on projects that aren't ready for the office rumor mill. I really miss my cubicle. I could stand up and have a conversation, or sit down and be in relative peace. The sound and visual isolation offered by those fabric walls can't be overstated.

loopz 7y ago

The concept of "Social anxiety" really doesn't explain it fully IMHO. The concept may even sound like a label of being wimpy, retarded or scared, which is probably not true at all - or can be made true/untrue depending on circumstances! It's more about what kind of loads your brain are optimized for (when feeling "drained" after social exposure for a full day), being exceedingly more sensitive than most, maybe even exposing more shenanigans at earliest opportunity. What helps is being encouraged to decide yourself, taking matters in your own hands. Making decision yourself to go into an unfamiliar environment, while having opportunity to withdraw etc. would be empowering and allow for adjustments by the individual herself. This requires a platform in the environment though, which takes time for everybody to adjust to. However such general empowerment in the environment benefits all in the end. These are not an unfounded view or wishful thoughts in my experience, though people will have different experiences.

dualboot 7y ago
That's a very narrow view of the world, friend. It's dangerous to presume that you have such a deep and wide perspective that you can instantly diagnose something so thoroughly.
- loopz 7y ago
  Sorry for thinking and sharing my experience. Just go back to being socially anxious then! Nevermind other explanation models or opportunities. I've updated my comment to attempt to clarify the meaning better, in case that was miscommunicated.
  - dualboot 7y ago
    The older I get, the more I realize that we really haven't figured out anything at all. We just make up or prescribe to a set of rules that help us cope with that as best as possible.
    - loopz 7y ago
      That's intentionally or unintentionally very insightful. We are the product of our environment, which is infinitely more powerful than us, so we have to adapt it wisely or perish.

ta_4661 7y ago

i've lived with chronic depersonalization and the resultant anxiety which had kept me hamstrung in my one and only job after a couple personal breakthroughs i finally gained the confidence to earn a promotion to my very modest dream role, only to find out a couple months in that we'd be transferring to open plan after the move i almost immediately started experiencing esteem-crumbling health issues caused by the constant anxiety, i avoided growth opportunities because i couldn't muster the energy to even volunteer, i failed to cultivate proper relationships with any of my coworkers and before long my destructive fight-or-flight tendencies were back in full force i tried being completely transparent about my problems in an attempt to save this job id wanted for so long, jumped through hoops like seeing a company appointed therapist, tried and failed to arrange more flexible working situations and so on eventually i provided enough dirt on file for them to force me to resign, so i'm now unemployed in my 30s with no references i have any confidence in and enough shame and guilt to put me in the ground should my extreme mental fog ever clear again knowing how deep mental issues can run i'm so sad knowing people are having their careers effectively curtailed by something as stupid as this in an industry that should understand these problems better than any other

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
krn 7y ago
> eventually i provided enough dirt on file for them to force me to resign, so i'm now unemployed in my 30s with no references i have any confidence in and enough shame and guilt to put me in the ground should my extreme mental fog ever clear again Have you considered working for a remote-only company, such as GitLab, DuckDuckGo or Buffer? For someone with a chronic depersonalization / derealization disorder a formal work environment should be a non-starter. The constant self-reflection around other people consumes the entire energy and leaves one unable to perform.
- ta_4661 7y ago
  i have no formal qualifications to speak of and i was in operations so my knowledge is already years out of date, all over the place and not at all relevant to any business operating that way i've struggled learning anything since i left because as bad as people affect me the less time i spend around them the worse the mental fog gets, which makes my ability to focus on any one topic pretty much non-existent attaining the delicate balance i require to feel functional is not happening in any formal environment, you are completely right about that and i've come to accept it over the past few years apologies for not getting back to you before, got stuck in a mental loop just writing a response.. sounds like you know exactly what i'm talking about so i appreciate it

sharadov 7y ago

It absolutely sucked for me whenever I used to try and code, if I was deep in thought and looking away and someone passed by, they would nod in my direction or get my attention some other way ( sorry am thinking, not in a mood to socialize)! Thankfully when I needed to get work done, the company allowed remote work. Working remote for the last 2.5 years, it's going to be hard when I have to go back to a real office.

TeMPOraL 7y ago

100% this, you've described perfectly how I feel. It's not something I have control over either. Even in high school, I've had to close the doors to my room to be able to focus on learning. I can work in a team on a common task requiring constant interaction (e.g. brainstorming, negotiating, designing), but if a task requires individual focus (like programming), I have to expend significant emotional energy on managing my anxiety if my work area is in the open. I know I'm not alone in this; the last time I worked in an office, we were technically in a semi-open space (8 people in a room), but the desks and monitors got subtly but quickly rearranged to block everyone's line-of-sight to everyone else.