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One day someone has to make a dataset of how much talent we waste in the EU. Bsc gets paid by EU taxes, guy ends up teaching in US university or working for US

One day someone has to make a dataset of how much talent we waste in the EU. Bsc gets paid by EU taxes, guy ends up teaching in US university or working for US company. It has become the cycle of life.

oarabbus_ 7y ago
Perhaps once the EU pays more than 50% of the salary that is paid in the US to software devs/analysts/etc, we'll see this behavior change.
- tasubotadas 7y ago
  Ironically, the EU has only few top tier software development companies because of (my personal uninformed opinion) all the taxes that reach 50% of the revenue to support social policies that include access to the universities.
Eldt 7y ago
One problem I see here is considering it to be wasteful...
- gota 7y ago
  It is wasteful from the perspective of the taxpayers that funded that highly-specialized, highly-sought after education only to see it move away (BTW the argument is the same even if that education was not strictly paid off by public money. The way societies and nations organize themselves, you're taking up a valuable resource just by occupying the "slot", even if you are paying for it the people around you are incurring in all sorts od externalities to support your existence and studies) I'm honestly surprised that the position that Brain Drain is not a problem exists and would be curious to see your reasoning Also - Brain Drain also negatively affects the destination country in the sense that it "eases" the societal pressure on providing top notch/decent education to the general population. Why bother with educating your people when you can let the best people from elsewhere immigrate? Revert that and see how fast FAANG backed education reforms hit Note -I'm not all in for either side, and believe as in most things there's an ideal middle ground. Let some come. Send some away, too! There's a lot of value in the exchange. But check the list od instructors in the post's page: a tremendously hot topic in one of the best educational institutions in the world - and how many instructors are stereotypically "immigrants"? I'm leaning towards 100%
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    Most expats do not move away altogether from their country of origin. Labor mobility ("brain drain"), even of skilled professionals, is not a negative; on the contrary, it has huge positive externalities for both the origin and the destination country, even if these don't always show up in obvious monetary terms. People are the ultimate 'resource' for building wealth, and ensuring that people are free to move around and seek the highest and best opportunities for themselves is absolutely the best policy. (At least if a few safeguards are included to minimize, e.g. social disruption due to large-scale movement of people affecting the local culture and society in unexpected ways. 'Open borders' should never be taken literally, but it's an ideal to move towards gradually.)
keenmaster 7y ago
The state serves a collection of individuals. If a particular individual is underserved, then it is consistent with the purpose of the state to: 1. Celebrate brain drain, because your people are improving their circumstances 2. Quickly move to one-up the U.S. and attract talent back to the EU Almost no one wants to leave their homeland unless the opportunities elsewhere are significantly better.
- ur-whale 7y ago
  > Almost no one wants to leave their homeland unless the opportunities elsewhere are significantly better. That highly depends on where you homeland actually is. I can think of many places on earth where people would like nothing better than to leave but simply can't (language barrier, degrees not good enough to relocate, etc ...)
  - keenmaster 7y ago
    Agreed. Interpret "opportunities" broadly. I don't just mean job opportunities, I mean all sorts of economic and social opportunities. If Bulgaria had top universities, great governance, a vibrant economy, and all the social changes that come along with that, I don't think young Bulgarians would be departing in droves.
wait_a_minute 7y ago
If highly productive people can't keep the fruit of their labor, they'll leave to a place where they can! We have less social programs in the US but the majority of productive people will probably prefer working here since they can take home a significantly higher salary even after taxes.
- Anon84 7y ago
  And after you add the expenses needed to make up for the social programs you don't have, you might even realize that what you're left with is not that significantly higher.
  - wait_a_minute 7y ago
    I don't think that's going to apply to the majority of high-income earners, because the difference is greater than the cost of not having free college or socialized healthcare. A college education is a one-time cost. You might pay $30,000 over time but when you're earning $130,000 or more, you can crush that really quickly and not be burdened by the higher taxation and reduced opportunity you'd be facing each year otherwise. The same is true with healthcare in America. It's actually not that bad if you have a decent insurance plan and some cash. For high-income earners, which is the people we are talking about leaving from the UK, it's most likely going to be a net gain over time to have the higher salaries and lower taxes. There's a reason the best engineers are going to want to leave the UK, Canada, India, China, etc, and come to the USA. It's worth it. I personally could work from anywhere including the UK, but why would I subject myself to such lower pay for little or no real gain?
    - zozbot234 7y ago
      Healthcare is "not that bad" if you have some cash, because then you can afford to go abroad, e.g. India for your care. Other than that, it is terrible.
      - ashtonbaker 7y ago
lowdose 7y ago
I bet this is going to shift because the Russian brain drain is almost complete. Europe did not have to compete yet with the United states because Russia was a single source of the migration of several million highly educated people. https://publications.atlanticcouncil.org/putin-exodus/ https://publications.atlanticcouncil.org/putin-exodus/
9q9 7y ago
Not just Europe, have a look at how many top Silicon Valley types went to IITs (Indian Institutes of Technology) [1]. Why would you stay in your home country when you can hop on a plane and 10x your salary (not to mention work at the cutting edge of science and engineering, rather than a decade late)? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institutes_of_Technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institutes_of_Technolog...
geoalchimista 7y ago
> Bsc gets paid by EU taxes, guy ends up teaching in US university or working for US company. Why would this be a concern? They should be free to go where they want to. Just because university education is publicly funded does not mean that they owe their career success to their national government.
tastroder 7y ago
While brain drain is a thing, why do you feel that this is a noteworthy example? The phenomenon clearly predates the EU and for this course in particular, you can get the same thing in universities all over Europe.

oarabbus_ 7y ago

Perhaps once the EU pays more than 50% of the salary that is paid in the US to software devs/analysts/etc, we'll see this behavior change.

tasubotadas 7y ago
Ironically, the EU has only few top tier software development companies because of (my personal uninformed opinion) all the taxes that reach 50% of the revenue to support social policies that include access to the universities.

Eldt 7y ago

One problem I see here is considering it to be wasteful...

gota 7y ago
It is wasteful from the perspective of the taxpayers that funded that highly-specialized, highly-sought after education only to see it move away (BTW the argument is the same even if that education was not strictly paid off by public money. The way societies and nations organize themselves, you're taking up a valuable resource just by occupying the "slot", even if you are paying for it the people around you are incurring in all sorts od externalities to support your existence and studies) I'm honestly surprised that the position that Brain Drain is not a problem exists and would be curious to see your reasoning Also - Brain Drain also negatively affects the destination country in the sense that it "eases" the societal pressure on providing top notch/decent education to the general population. Why bother with educating your people when you can let the best people from elsewhere immigrate? Revert that and see how fast FAANG backed education reforms hit Note -I'm not all in for either side, and believe as in most things there's an ideal middle ground. Let some come. Send some away, too! There's a lot of value in the exchange. But check the list od instructors in the post's page: a tremendously hot topic in one of the best educational institutions in the world - and how many instructors are stereotypically "immigrants"? I'm leaning towards 100%
- zozbot234 7y ago
  Most expats do not move away altogether from their country of origin. Labor mobility ("brain drain"), even of skilled professionals, is not a negative; on the contrary, it has huge positive externalities for both the origin and the destination country, even if these don't always show up in obvious monetary terms. People are the ultimate 'resource' for building wealth, and ensuring that people are free to move around and seek the highest and best opportunities for themselves is absolutely the best policy. (At least if a few safeguards are included to minimize, e.g. social disruption due to large-scale movement of people affecting the local culture and society in unexpected ways. 'Open borders' should never be taken literally, but it's an ideal to move towards gradually.)

keenmaster 7y ago

The state serves a collection of individuals. If a particular individual is underserved, then it is consistent with the purpose of the state to: 1. Celebrate brain drain, because your people are improving their circumstances 2. Quickly move to one-up the U.S. and attract talent back to the EU Almost no one wants to leave their homeland unless the opportunities elsewhere are significantly better.

ur-whale 7y ago
> Almost no one wants to leave their homeland unless the opportunities elsewhere are significantly better. That highly depends on where you homeland actually is. I can think of many places on earth where people would like nothing better than to leave but simply can't (language barrier, degrees not good enough to relocate, etc ...)
- keenmaster 7y ago
  Agreed. Interpret "opportunities" broadly. I don't just mean job opportunities, I mean all sorts of economic and social opportunities. If Bulgaria had top universities, great governance, a vibrant economy, and all the social changes that come along with that, I don't think young Bulgarians would be departing in droves.

wait_a_minute 7y ago

If highly productive people can't keep the fruit of their labor, they'll leave to a place where they can! We have less social programs in the US but the majority of productive people will probably prefer working here since they can take home a significantly higher salary even after taxes.

Anon84 7y ago
And after you add the expenses needed to make up for the social programs you don't have, you might even realize that what you're left with is not that significantly higher.
- wait_a_minute 7y ago
  I don't think that's going to apply to the majority of high-income earners, because the difference is greater than the cost of not having free college or socialized healthcare. A college education is a one-time cost. You might pay $30,000 over time but when you're earning $130,000 or more, you can crush that really quickly and not be burdened by the higher taxation and reduced opportunity you'd be facing each year otherwise. The same is true with healthcare in America. It's actually not that bad if you have a decent insurance plan and some cash. For high-income earners, which is the people we are talking about leaving from the UK, it's most likely going to be a net gain over time to have the higher salaries and lower taxes. There's a reason the best engineers are going to want to leave the UK, Canada, India, China, etc, and come to the USA. It's worth it. I personally could work from anywhere including the UK, but why would I subject myself to such lower pay for little or no real gain?
  - zozbot234 7y ago
    Healthcare is "not that bad" if you have some cash, because then you can afford to go abroad, e.g. India for your care. Other than that, it is terrible.
    - ashtonbaker 7y ago

lowdose 7y ago

I bet this is going to shift because the Russian brain drain is almost complete. Europe did not have to compete yet with the United states because Russia was a single source of the migration of several million highly educated people. https://publications.atlanticcouncil.org/putin-exodus/ https://publications.atlanticcouncil.org/putin-exodus/

9q9 7y ago

Not just Europe, have a look at how many top Silicon Valley types went to IITs (Indian Institutes of Technology) [1]. Why would you stay in your home country when you can hop on a plane and 10x your salary (not to mention work at the cutting edge of science and engineering, rather than a decade late)? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institutes_of_Technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Institutes_of_Technolog...

geoalchimista 7y ago

> Bsc gets paid by EU taxes, guy ends up teaching in US university or working for US company. Why would this be a concern? They should be free to go where they want to. Just because university education is publicly funded does not mean that they owe their career success to their national government.

tastroder 7y ago

While brain drain is a thing, why do you feel that this is a noteworthy example? The phenomenon clearly predates the EU and for this course in particular, you can get the same thing in universities all over Europe.