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Speaking of medical billing insanity... I recently had a MRI, and in the process of filling out the usual new-patient form at the imaging center, they wanted m

by pdkl95 7y ago

Speaking of medical billing insanity... I recently had a MRI, and in the process of filling out the usual new-patient form at the imaging center, they wanted me to sign a blank LCD touchscreen. No indication whatsoever what I would be signing. Is it even a contract if you never saw the offer and thus no "meeting of the minds"? After explaining that I wasn't going to sign a "blank check" contract (and would always need to read the entire contract before first), they eventually figured out how print the actual document. After several minutes reading the 8 page (!) contract, I found a clause I haven't seen before. After more or less normal stuff about agreeing to pay for the service, in a section about sending the bill to a collection agency if I didn't pay, they wanted me to agree to 1) pay for the collection agency and any other fees associated with recovering the debt, and 2) pay their attorney fees if they decided to take me to court over the debt. I wounder a judge would actually enforce that clause. Agreeing to pay someone to sue yourself seems unconscionable. I told them I wouldn't sign their unreasonable contract (that wasn't the only problem) and they sent me off to have the MRI scan anyway.

jiveturkey 7y ago
> I wounder a judge would actually enforce that clause. Yes. It's a normal and enforceable clause. It's very common in all kinds of contracts.
- dfxm12 7y ago
  Depending on the situation, it could be reasonable to argue that you were under duress or undue influence to sign the contract. This is all situation dependent, of course, but it is probably rare that an individual would have the resources and wherewithal to win such a case anyway (which is another problem).
gnopgnip 7y ago
Typically the attorney fee assignment clauses go both ways, and the prevailing party has their fees paid. In some jurisdictions one sided clauses can be thrown out
petilon 7y ago
When you sign the LCD screen without the ability to see what exactly you are agreeing to, that gives you ammunition if needed later in court. When you sign on paper there is less wiggle room for you.
- benburleson 7y ago
  Just sign "No contract provided" and hand it back like it's no problem. If the employees don't care to actually give you a document, what are the chances they are going to scrutinize your "signature?"
  - bb88 7y ago
    A co-worker decided it would be funny to draw penises on the credit card signature forms. The credit card companies apparently didn't care.
sidewndr46 7y ago
Recently had an MRI as well. I was given an iPad with lots of documents to sign. Most of it was what you'd expect. Just poorly scrawl your name & initials where indicated. The one that really jumped out to me was the Power of Attorney. Yes, the provider wanted me to grant them an indefinite Power of Attorney as part of being a patient. I asked if I had to complete this and was told I could skip it. I was really glad to see that about 1/2 the people in the waiting room had the same question.
- stronglikedan 7y ago
  > wanted me to grant them an indefinite Power of Attorney Surely this should be reported to someone that could do something about it. I would hope so anyway, as that seems like a dark pattern that could be litigated.
- justwalt 7y ago
  How does the person in charge of this decision justify that kind of thing to themselves?
- pdkl95 7y ago
  > Power of Attorney If I remember correctly, there might have been something about PoA in my contract. I already hand several reasons to not sign it, so I only skimmed the last ~1/3 of the document. For comparison, I had a minor surgery (ulnar nerve release) in the surgical center across the hallway from the imaging center. I think they are part of the same umbrella healthcare company? The surgery center only wanted me to sign a short, concise contract that was mainly standard stuff (surgery always has some risk). I don't understand why an MRI (very safe, short) needs 3x-4x longer contract than surgery (always has some risk, involves a lot more people). This seems backwards.
- jasonjayr 7y ago
  > Power of Attorney Isn't this similar to the same trick those business loan sharks employ? They ask you to sign a "Notice Of Default" or similar document upfront, that they present to the court to get an instant summary judgement if anything goes wrong with repayment?
djsumdog 7y ago
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I just got a signature on a screen for a regular doctor visit and I was like, "What am I signing? There's nothing here." She gave me a laminated card; three pages. I think she was kinda shocked I read it. Kinda unrelated ... I was at a Wal-Greens and the checkout person wanted to scan my ID. I was like, "NO! I do not consent." She called her manager saying, "No one has ever said this before." I asked about their data retention policy, wanted to see their privacy policy. I know this was useless, because they're not going to know. The manager said, "Unless we scan your card, you can't buy alcohol." So I turned my bag upside down, emptied everything out and said goodbye. I no longer buy alcohol at Wal-greens (or anyone who scans my ID), and I find it disturbing I was the first person who asked. Most people don't care about their privacy or what they're signing. It's fucking insane.
- pdkl95 7y ago
  "Unless we scan your card, you can't buy alcohol." PhilosophyTube recently posted a great video essay (Socratic dialogue?) that explores that exact situation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCUTX1jurJ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCUTX1jurJ4

by pdkl95 7y ago

jiveturkey 7y ago

> I wounder a judge would actually enforce that clause. Yes. It's a normal and enforceable clause. It's very common in all kinds of contracts.

dfxm12 7y ago
Depending on the situation, it could be reasonable to argue that you were under duress or undue influence to sign the contract. This is all situation dependent, of course, but it is probably rare that an individual would have the resources and wherewithal to win such a case anyway (which is another problem).

gnopgnip 7y ago

Typically the attorney fee assignment clauses go both ways, and the prevailing party has their fees paid. In some jurisdictions one sided clauses can be thrown out

petilon 7y ago

When you sign the LCD screen without the ability to see what exactly you are agreeing to, that gives you ammunition if needed later in court. When you sign on paper there is less wiggle room for you.

benburleson 7y ago
Just sign "No contract provided" and hand it back like it's no problem. If the employees don't care to actually give you a document, what are the chances they are going to scrutinize your "signature?"
- bb88 7y ago
  A co-worker decided it would be funny to draw penises on the credit card signature forms. The credit card companies apparently didn't care.

sidewndr46 7y ago

Recently had an MRI as well. I was given an iPad with lots of documents to sign. Most of it was what you'd expect. Just poorly scrawl your name & initials where indicated. The one that really jumped out to me was the Power of Attorney. Yes, the provider wanted me to grant them an indefinite Power of Attorney as part of being a patient. I asked if I had to complete this and was told I could skip it. I was really glad to see that about 1/2 the people in the waiting room had the same question.

stronglikedan 7y ago
> wanted me to grant them an indefinite Power of Attorney Surely this should be reported to someone that could do something about it. I would hope so anyway, as that seems like a dark pattern that could be litigated.
justwalt 7y ago
How does the person in charge of this decision justify that kind of thing to themselves?
pdkl95 7y ago
> Power of Attorney If I remember correctly, there might have been something about PoA in my contract. I already hand several reasons to not sign it, so I only skimmed the last ~1/3 of the document. For comparison, I had a minor surgery (ulnar nerve release) in the surgical center across the hallway from the imaging center. I think they are part of the same umbrella healthcare company? The surgery center only wanted me to sign a short, concise contract that was mainly standard stuff (surgery always has some risk). I don't understand why an MRI (very safe, short) needs 3x-4x longer contract than surgery (always has some risk, involves a lot more people). This seems backwards.
jasonjayr 7y ago
> Power of Attorney Isn't this similar to the same trick those business loan sharks employ? They ask you to sign a "Notice Of Default" or similar document upfront, that they present to the court to get an instant summary judgement if anything goes wrong with repayment?

djsumdog 7y ago

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I just got a signature on a screen for a regular doctor visit and I was like, "What am I signing? There's nothing here." She gave me a laminated card; three pages. I think she was kinda shocked I read it. Kinda unrelated ... I was at a Wal-Greens and the checkout person wanted to scan my ID. I was like, "NO! I do not consent." She called her manager saying, "No one has ever said this before." I asked about their data retention policy, wanted to see their privacy policy. I know this was useless, because they're not going to know. The manager said, "Unless we scan your card, you can't buy alcohol." So I turned my bag upside down, emptied everything out and said goodbye. I no longer buy alcohol at Wal-greens (or anyone who scans my ID), and I find it disturbing I was the first person who asked. Most people don't care about their privacy or what they're signing. It's fucking insane.

pdkl95 7y ago
"Unless we scan your card, you can't buy alcohol." PhilosophyTube recently posted a great video essay (Socratic dialogue?) that explores that exact situation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCUTX1jurJ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCUTX1jurJ4