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It's easy to say "this is bad" but put yourself in the position of the Israeli leadership. They are a tiny country surrounded by enemies and a people who have e

It's easy to say "this is bad" but put yourself in the position of the Israeli leadership. They are a tiny country surrounded by enemies and a people who have experienced horrible atrocities in the recent past. Even though it is wrong I accept that the logical actions for them is to set up exteme measures of blackmail and espionage to further the security of their people and homeland. It's literally a survival issue for them and possibly morally equivalent to a starving person stealing bread.

barry-cotter 7y ago
All intelligence agencies are staffed by the morally bankrupt. To get bin Laden the CIA set back the effort to end polio decades. There are no good people in intelligence, only bad ones working for one country and bad ones working for another.
- econcon 7y ago
  Let's not forget MKUltra.
- salawat 7y ago
  Sorry if this should have been more obvious, but are you referring to something that I seem to remember hearing about where the groups vaccinating were supposedly taking blood samples from people being vaccinated for DNA analysis, which when the story broke would have tarnished the willingness of patients to get vaccinated? I do apologize. It has been a long while since I even recalled seeing that in passing, and I never really thought about it at the time; but it has stuck with me as a case illustrating the criticality of trust in medicine.
econcon 7y ago
Self preservation has been the greatest motivator/justification for inflicting pain and sufferings onto others
Udik 7y ago
> to further the security of their people and homeland. They're not furthering the security of the homeland. They're furthering the homeland, expanding it into territories belonging to people who face a much worse existential threat- Israel itself.
tsimionescu 7y ago
If Israel had wanted security, they would have accepted the worldwide consensus on the two-state solution 30 years ago, and would have moved on to further diplomatic ties with their closest neighbors. Instead, Israel wants territory and power, so they build illegal colonies on stolen land, they brutalize Palestine and make a show of brutally repressing them,and they antagonize and threaten their neighbors in defiance of international law. There will be no peace in Israel as long as this doesn't change, but they may well flourish economically from this. On the other hand, to believe that the US is an unwilling, blackmailed participant in all of this is absurd. The US is not Israel's dim-witted reluctant ally, it is actively spurring on Israel in all of their actions, both in order to extend its influence and defeat its enemies in the area (Iran's independence and rejection of the Cia-installed Shah will not be forgiven or forgotten), and to keep a steady demand for US armaments going in the area.
- Udik 7y ago
  I fully agree with you until the part about the USA. Yes, it's true that the US aren't a reluctant ally but an enthusiastic one; but this is because the US have been led to believe through relentless lobbying and propaganda that their interests always coincide with those of Israel. Which is of course not true, and cannot be true by definition. But the level of confusion is such that Kushner, who as a government official was given a top secret security clearance (besides being in charge of delivering a "peace plan" between Israel and Palestine) was also on the board of a "charity" collecting money for Israel's army. Let that sink in: someone who was collecting money to fund the army of a foreign country was given an official government role and a top secret security clearance!
  - tsimionescu 7y ago
    Perhaps I misspoke, I didn't mean to imply that the population of the USA has its interests aligned with Israel. I meant that the US ruling class is very much happy with Israel's actions, because the turmoil in the region often lines their own pockets, and at least attacks a lot of their own enemies.
    - 7y ago
AndrewBissell 7y ago
Sounds like they just need some Lebensraum.
captainredbeard 7y ago
Then an over the top, punitive reaction from victim nations is appropriate. Enjoy!

barry-cotter 7y ago

All intelligence agencies are staffed by the morally bankrupt. To get bin Laden the CIA set back the effort to end polio decades. There are no good people in intelligence, only bad ones working for one country and bad ones working for another.

econcon 7y ago
Let's not forget MKUltra.
salawat 7y ago
Sorry if this should have been more obvious, but are you referring to something that I seem to remember hearing about where the groups vaccinating were supposedly taking blood samples from people being vaccinated for DNA analysis, which when the story broke would have tarnished the willingness of patients to get vaccinated? I do apologize. It has been a long while since I even recalled seeing that in passing, and I never really thought about it at the time; but it has stuck with me as a case illustrating the criticality of trust in medicine.

econcon 7y ago

Self preservation has been the greatest motivator/justification for inflicting pain and sufferings onto others

Udik 7y ago

> to further the security of their people and homeland. They're not furthering the security of the homeland. They're furthering the homeland, expanding it into territories belonging to people who face a much worse existential threat- Israel itself.

tsimionescu 7y ago

If Israel had wanted security, they would have accepted the worldwide consensus on the two-state solution 30 years ago, and would have moved on to further diplomatic ties with their closest neighbors. Instead, Israel wants territory and power, so they build illegal colonies on stolen land, they brutalize Palestine and make a show of brutally repressing them,and they antagonize and threaten their neighbors in defiance of international law. There will be no peace in Israel as long as this doesn't change, but they may well flourish economically from this. On the other hand, to believe that the US is an unwilling, blackmailed participant in all of this is absurd. The US is not Israel's dim-witted reluctant ally, it is actively spurring on Israel in all of their actions, both in order to extend its influence and defeat its enemies in the area (Iran's independence and rejection of the Cia-installed Shah will not be forgiven or forgotten), and to keep a steady demand for US armaments going in the area.

Udik 7y ago
I fully agree with you until the part about the USA. Yes, it's true that the US aren't a reluctant ally but an enthusiastic one; but this is because the US have been led to believe through relentless lobbying and propaganda that their interests always coincide with those of Israel. Which is of course not true, and cannot be true by definition. But the level of confusion is such that Kushner, who as a government official was given a top secret security clearance (besides being in charge of delivering a "peace plan" between Israel and Palestine) was also on the board of a "charity" collecting money for Israel's army. Let that sink in: someone who was collecting money to fund the army of a foreign country was given an official government role and a top secret security clearance!
- tsimionescu 7y ago
  Perhaps I misspoke, I didn't mean to imply that the population of the USA has its interests aligned with Israel. I meant that the US ruling class is very much happy with Israel's actions, because the turmoil in the region often lines their own pockets, and at least attacks a lot of their own enemies.
  - 7y ago

AndrewBissell 7y ago

Sounds like they just need some Lebensraum.

captainredbeard 7y ago

Then an over the top, punitive reaction from victim nations is appropriate. Enjoy!