5 ms·

Not mentioned here, but definitely plausible: public health monitoring and enforcement action via infrared thermometers in public places. China has already dep

Not mentioned here, but definitely plausible: public health monitoring and enforcement action via infrared thermometers in public places. China has already deployed facial recognition all over the place, it would be fairly easy to add thermal imaging on top and actively track people with fevers if the temperature resolution is good enough.

m-p-3 7y ago
Is there some kind of infrared thermometer someone could buy for themselves and detect a sickness early and minimize the transmission by voluntarily isolate themselves for a moment?
- maxander 7y ago
  If it’s just for yourself, a regular thermometer will do, certainly?
- saeranv 7y ago
  There is an instrument called an infrared thermometer. It measures the long-wave radiation emitted from a target object and computes it's temperature. However that will only give you the measure of a single spot, which could be inaccurate due to thermal reflections, or noise, so ideally you'd want an infrared camera, which will provide a thermal image your target. They're a bit pricey though. On the other hand, why not just use a regular thermometer?
  - richardw 7y ago
    It’s possible to remove the infrared filter from a normal camera and replace with one that only lets in IR. lots of articles online but no idea how hard it is. Edit: for example https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/144388-how-to-turn-your-dslr-into-a-full-spectrum-super-camera https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/144388-how-to-turn-y...
    - trevyn 7y ago
      That will only get you the near-IR range, not the long-wave IR used for thermal imaging.
- Galanwe 7y ago
  There are two issues behind this. First, the fever and temperature increase come after 2 to 5 days of infection (14 at most). So you are effectively contagious before showing any symptoms. This is why most detection measures at airports are useless. It used to work for other outbreaks though (e.g. SARS/MERS). Second, realistically most people would not want to isolate themselves. They will want to leave China and find a hospital in a neighboring country where they could be treated in better conditions (e.g less overcrowded hospitals, more staff). This is why a lot of Chinese people try to cross to Hong Kong or still attempt to fly to Europe even though they know they are sick. Last, some people will just ignore the fever and hope for the best. We have seen people arriving in HK from China and straight refusing to be tested for the virus. I’m not blaming anyone here of course. I don’t think this is intrinsic to the Chinese mentality, most humans would do the same in such conditions: unconsciously ignore the symptoms, refusing the rational solution and putting themselves before the risk to others; because faced with the probability of dying, your brain can make you believe anything, even that your fever will vanish.
- oops 7y ago
  The Whoop[1] does not measure body temperature but it does measure your heart. Several users claim it has detected their sickness before they realize. FitBit too. 1: https://www.whoop.com/ https://www.whoop.com/
  - heavyset_go 7y ago
    Surely this is a claim that warrants FDA approval.
  - mr_toad 7y ago
    There are too many confounding factors for resting heart rate to be a reliable measure of illness - stress, dehydration, a hot climate, alcohol and lack of sleep can all have an impact.
- nitrogen 7y ago
  FLIR is the most well-known thermal IR camera
gauravjain13 7y ago
Already in use at major Chinese airports/ports of entry.
- ta999999171 7y ago
  Better not run too fast to catch your flight!
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    Now I'm curious how do security people react to people running in airports. Or maybe suspicious people never run because they don't want to attract attention (and do so in the process)
- osteele 7y ago
  In Shanghai (pop. 24M), IR scanning is also required to drive into the city and to enter the subway. The paper says that anyone with a high temperature is held in a quarantine area for hospital pickup. In my district at least, an IR scan is also required to enter shopping malls, and at least some apartment complexes (including mine). This morning the nearest Starbucks started requiring IR scan.
  - soared 7y ago
    Super interesting. Do you have any articles or photos with more info?
  - adrr 7y ago
    Isn’t this easily defeated by taking a NSAID(eg: ibuprofen).
    - sliken 7y ago
      Heh, or a wet napkin, a quick wipe will significantly decrease your face temp until it dries.
      - 7y ago
scottlegrand2 7y ago
There's an interview with an African grad student in Wuhan who says that strange cases of pneumonia were happening all the way back in September of 2019. And this interview was the first I'd ever heard of that. This could have been a non-starter had not the Chinese Communist party covered this up as long as they did. That's what needs to change. There might be a genetic predilection for Asians to be susceptible to coronaviruses, but if we attack these things head-on as they emerge, they won't amount to much. If we pretend they're not happening, one day we're going to get a pandemic. That day might be today unfortunately but only time will tell. https://youtu.be/8uIVf_o9aXM https://youtu.be/8uIVf_o9aXM
- redis_mlc 7y ago
  It's been reported for decades that small-time livestock farmers in rural China live too closely to their animals, namely pigs, which are genetically similar to humans. So that's the source of annual flu. So search on that as a start.
  - scottlegrand2 7y ago
    Completely different viruses, but right before the coronavirus outbreak, there was a plague outbreak in Beijing and the CCP responded similarly ineptly to it. The article below is from November 2019. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/16/china-bubonic-plague-outbreak-pandemic/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/16/china-bubonic-plague-ou...
nate_meurer 7y ago
Indeed, I think thermal imaging for public health monitoring will hasten the spread of video surveillance and facial recognition worldwide. Thermal imaging technology is already commoditized and inexpensive, and as you point out, probably easy to integrate into existing security IT infrastructure. It will start at airports and border checkpoints.
heavyset_go 7y ago
People are already taking fever reducers like aspirin to get through screenings where authorities are taking temperatures.
- woutr_be 7y ago
  You say that as if everyone will be doing this. I believe there was only one case where a woman travelled through France and bragged about it online. People also hide drugs to get past airport customs / security, does that mean security is not effective? Perhaps, but it mostly defers honest people from doing stupid things, there will always be people who'll try to get around it, but they're only a very very small minority.
  - heavyset_go 7y ago
    > You say that as if everyone will be doing this. No, I don't. That is just how you're choosing to read into my comment.
    - woutr_be 7y ago
      Which is why I used "You say that as if...", because it would be very easy to interpreted your comment that way.
rfoo 7y ago
Surveillance firms in China (and gov't) are already deploying a prototype of the thing you described [1][2]. No reports on how effective this system is though. [1] http://www.xinhuanet.com/local/2020-02/06/c_1125536287.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/local/2020-02/06/c_1125536287.htm [2] https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1178554.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1178554.shtml
osteele 7y ago
"The drone project involves young tech enthusiasts from the Jinkui Community Youth Science and Technology Innovation Center. Every day — for two hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon — youngsters wearing masks and gloves fly drones to patrol the community. The drones carry loudspeakers which announce: “Please stay at home as much as possible. If you have to go out, don’t forget to wear a mask.” The drones can also scan car plates and record which vehicles have entered the community. The drones are also equipped with thermal scanners which can measure the temperatures of people idling in the community. Those found with normal temperatures will be encouraged to return home. Officials will be alerted of people found with fever." https://www.shine.cn/news/metro/2002051335/ https://www.shine.cn/news/metro/2002051335/
- fyfy18 7y ago
  That sounds exactly like some sort of population control mechanism from a dystopian novel. All it needs is a tazer for those that don't comply.
  - megablast 7y ago
    What should they do during an epidemic?
    - knicholes 7y ago
      Not wear masks, if nothing else.
  - Izkata 7y ago
    How about trapping people inside their homes? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7960471/Police-BARRICADE-screaming-woman-home-iron-bars-Wuhan-stop-coronavirus-spreading.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7960471/Police-BARR...

m-p-3 7y ago

Is there some kind of infrared thermometer someone could buy for themselves and detect a sickness early and minimize the transmission by voluntarily isolate themselves for a moment?

maxander 7y ago
If it’s just for yourself, a regular thermometer will do, certainly?
saeranv 7y ago
There is an instrument called an infrared thermometer. It measures the long-wave radiation emitted from a target object and computes it's temperature. However that will only give you the measure of a single spot, which could be inaccurate due to thermal reflections, or noise, so ideally you'd want an infrared camera, which will provide a thermal image your target. They're a bit pricey though. On the other hand, why not just use a regular thermometer?
- richardw 7y ago
  It’s possible to remove the infrared filter from a normal camera and replace with one that only lets in IR. lots of articles online but no idea how hard it is. Edit: for example https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/144388-how-to-turn-your-dslr-into-a-full-spectrum-super-camera https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/144388-how-to-turn-y...
  - trevyn 7y ago
    That will only get you the near-IR range, not the long-wave IR used for thermal imaging.
Galanwe 7y ago
There are two issues behind this. First, the fever and temperature increase come after 2 to 5 days of infection (14 at most). So you are effectively contagious before showing any symptoms. This is why most detection measures at airports are useless. It used to work for other outbreaks though (e.g. SARS/MERS). Second, realistically most people would not want to isolate themselves. They will want to leave China and find a hospital in a neighboring country where they could be treated in better conditions (e.g less overcrowded hospitals, more staff). This is why a lot of Chinese people try to cross to Hong Kong or still attempt to fly to Europe even though they know they are sick. Last, some people will just ignore the fever and hope for the best. We have seen people arriving in HK from China and straight refusing to be tested for the virus. I’m not blaming anyone here of course. I don’t think this is intrinsic to the Chinese mentality, most humans would do the same in such conditions: unconsciously ignore the symptoms, refusing the rational solution and putting themselves before the risk to others; because faced with the probability of dying, your brain can make you believe anything, even that your fever will vanish.
oops 7y ago
The Whoop[1] does not measure body temperature but it does measure your heart. Several users claim it has detected their sickness before they realize. FitBit too. 1: https://www.whoop.com/ https://www.whoop.com/
- heavyset_go 7y ago
  Surely this is a claim that warrants FDA approval.
- mr_toad 7y ago
  There are too many confounding factors for resting heart rate to be a reliable measure of illness - stress, dehydration, a hot climate, alcohol and lack of sleep can all have an impact.
nitrogen 7y ago
FLIR is the most well-known thermal IR camera

gauravjain13 7y ago

Already in use at major Chinese airports/ports of entry.

ta999999171 7y ago
Better not run too fast to catch your flight!
- agumonkey 7y ago
  Now I'm curious how do security people react to people running in airports. Or maybe suspicious people never run because they don't want to attract attention (and do so in the process)
osteele 7y ago
In Shanghai (pop. 24M), IR scanning is also required to drive into the city and to enter the subway. The paper says that anyone with a high temperature is held in a quarantine area for hospital pickup. In my district at least, an IR scan is also required to enter shopping malls, and at least some apartment complexes (including mine). This morning the nearest Starbucks started requiring IR scan.
- soared 7y ago
  Super interesting. Do you have any articles or photos with more info?
- adrr 7y ago
  Isn’t this easily defeated by taking a NSAID(eg: ibuprofen).
  - sliken 7y ago
    Heh, or a wet napkin, a quick wipe will significantly decrease your face temp until it dries.
    - 7y ago

scottlegrand2 7y ago

There's an interview with an African grad student in Wuhan who says that strange cases of pneumonia were happening all the way back in September of 2019. And this interview was the first I'd ever heard of that. This could have been a non-starter had not the Chinese Communist party covered this up as long as they did. That's what needs to change. There might be a genetic predilection for Asians to be susceptible to coronaviruses, but if we attack these things head-on as they emerge, they won't amount to much. If we pretend they're not happening, one day we're going to get a pandemic. That day might be today unfortunately but only time will tell. https://youtu.be/8uIVf_o9aXM https://youtu.be/8uIVf_o9aXM

redis_mlc 7y ago
It's been reported for decades that small-time livestock farmers in rural China live too closely to their animals, namely pigs, which are genetically similar to humans. So that's the source of annual flu. So search on that as a start.
- scottlegrand2 7y ago
  Completely different viruses, but right before the coronavirus outbreak, there was a plague outbreak in Beijing and the CCP responded similarly ineptly to it. The article below is from November 2019. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/16/china-bubonic-plague-outbreak-pandemic/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/16/china-bubonic-plague-ou...

nate_meurer 7y ago

Indeed, I think thermal imaging for public health monitoring will hasten the spread of video surveillance and facial recognition worldwide. Thermal imaging technology is already commoditized and inexpensive, and as you point out, probably easy to integrate into existing security IT infrastructure. It will start at airports and border checkpoints.

heavyset_go 7y ago

People are already taking fever reducers like aspirin to get through screenings where authorities are taking temperatures.

woutr_be 7y ago
You say that as if everyone will be doing this. I believe there was only one case where a woman travelled through France and bragged about it online. People also hide drugs to get past airport customs / security, does that mean security is not effective? Perhaps, but it mostly defers honest people from doing stupid things, there will always be people who'll try to get around it, but they're only a very very small minority.
- heavyset_go 7y ago
  > You say that as if everyone will be doing this. No, I don't. That is just how you're choosing to read into my comment.
  - woutr_be 7y ago
    Which is why I used "You say that as if...", because it would be very easy to interpreted your comment that way.

rfoo 7y ago

Surveillance firms in China (and gov't) are already deploying a prototype of the thing you described [1][2]. No reports on how effective this system is though. [1] http://www.xinhuanet.com/local/2020-02/06/c_1125536287.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/local/2020-02/06/c_1125536287.htm [2] https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1178554.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1178554.shtml

osteele 7y ago

"The drone project involves young tech enthusiasts from the Jinkui Community Youth Science and Technology Innovation Center. Every day — for two hours in the morning and two hours in the afternoon — youngsters wearing masks and gloves fly drones to patrol the community. The drones carry loudspeakers which announce: “Please stay at home as much as possible. If you have to go out, don’t forget to wear a mask.” The drones can also scan car plates and record which vehicles have entered the community. The drones are also equipped with thermal scanners which can measure the temperatures of people idling in the community. Those found with normal temperatures will be encouraged to return home. Officials will be alerted of people found with fever." https://www.shine.cn/news/metro/2002051335/ https://www.shine.cn/news/metro/2002051335/

fyfy18 7y ago
That sounds exactly like some sort of population control mechanism from a dystopian novel. All it needs is a tazer for those that don't comply.
- megablast 7y ago
  What should they do during an epidemic?
  - knicholes 7y ago
    Not wear masks, if nothing else.
- Izkata 7y ago
  How about trapping people inside their homes? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7960471/Police-BARRICADE-screaming-woman-home-iron-bars-Wuhan-stop-coronavirus-spreading.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7960471/Police-BARR...