4 ms·

This seems like an awesome idea in concept but I agree with twir...what stops the government from just getting the ISPs to turn off traffic? I would pay $99 fo

This seems like an awesome idea in concept but I agree with twir...what stops the government from just getting the ISPs to turn off traffic? I would pay $99 for myself and buy each and every one of my friends one of these boxes if the concept proved true.

Wildweasal 16y ago
Assuming the goal here is to have the Free Exchange of Information: Step 1 is to own the hardware that serves up your information. Step 2 is to own the path that your information travels upon. You are correct, Step 2 is a significantly more difficult problem to solve, but this does not mean that we should not try to solve Step 1 while we have an opportunity to do so.
- pestaa 16y ago
  Let's everyone have their own satellite! I'm kidding, but maybe not necessarily...
- stewars 16y ago
  I believe IPv6 provides a start for what is necessary to solve Step 2. IPSec is part of the protocol so these connections can be trusted. Also no NAT issues so connecting directly between trusted 'plugs' may be simpler than with IPv4. May need to start with a mesh network over a mix of paths that you own and paths that you may not. I have no real world experience implementing IPv6, just been looking into it lately.
- praptak 16y ago
  Step 2 is hard but not 100% impossible. There's long range wifi and in densely populated areas it does not even need to be long range.
to 16y ago
so true... i would invest into it, only if i knew if it has a future or if it will end where the free anonymous wireless idea went. (how did they call that software again for your router? i cant remember...)
pyre 16y ago
> what stops the government from just getting the ISPs to turn off traffic? Something like Xnet in Cory Doctorow's Little Brother. A mesh network where you send your requests into the 'mesh' and it encrypts the information and sends it out to the wider internet through exit nodes that are hooked up to ISPs. Were such a network to exist, then the mesh would extend across borders, so E.g. the US government would also have to convince Canada and Mexico to shut down their ISPs as well. The parts of the mesh that connected to Canada and Mexico wouldn't be able to route all casual internet traffic for the entire US, but it would be enough just to get information into (or out of) the country and onto the mesh network. Once on the US portion of the mesh network, the external information could be distributed amongst the nodes since the mesh network is independent of government control. The mesh network would also easily be able to allow people within the country to coordinate things like protests, etc. Shutting down the internet in instances like Egypt isn't necessarily about cutting off access to the outside, it's also about cutting off the ability of the people easily organize themselves en masse.
- Locke1689 16y ago
  Mesh networks have never been practical on that scale and a number of recent DS papers (c.f. ACM digital archives) provide no support that it will ever be practical on that scale. Even if all the protocols are rewritten (as they will have to be), it will cost way too much money to switch. I personally believe the entire thing is a giant pipe dream, but whatever keeps people warm at night, I guess.
  - wladimir 16y ago
    Yes it's pretty simple. If enough people are committed to it, it will work. Which can only be driven by neccesity. This might not be the case in western countries, right now, but once governments start to mess with communications infrastructure really badly (like happened in Egypt), people will use other, non-centralized ways to communciate. Also, don't underestimate innovation, back in the 80's many people would think a global computer network that could be used by everyone, and is a big part of daily life, was a pipe dream.
  - pyre 16y ago

Wildweasal 16y ago

Assuming the goal here is to have the Free Exchange of Information: Step 1 is to own the hardware that serves up your information. Step 2 is to own the path that your information travels upon. You are correct, Step 2 is a significantly more difficult problem to solve, but this does not mean that we should not try to solve Step 1 while we have an opportunity to do so.

pestaa 16y ago
Let's everyone have their own satellite! I'm kidding, but maybe not necessarily...
stewars 16y ago
I believe IPv6 provides a start for what is necessary to solve Step 2. IPSec is part of the protocol so these connections can be trusted. Also no NAT issues so connecting directly between trusted 'plugs' may be simpler than with IPv4. May need to start with a mesh network over a mix of paths that you own and paths that you may not. I have no real world experience implementing IPv6, just been looking into it lately.
praptak 16y ago
Step 2 is hard but not 100% impossible. There's long range wifi and in densely populated areas it does not even need to be long range.

to 16y ago

so true... i would invest into it, only if i knew if it has a future or if it will end where the free anonymous wireless idea went. (how did they call that software again for your router? i cant remember...)

pyre 16y ago

> what stops the government from just getting the ISPs to turn off traffic? Something like Xnet in Cory Doctorow's Little Brother. A mesh network where you send your requests into the 'mesh' and it encrypts the information and sends it out to the wider internet through exit nodes that are hooked up to ISPs. Were such a network to exist, then the mesh would extend across borders, so E.g. the US government would also have to convince Canada and Mexico to shut down their ISPs as well. The parts of the mesh that connected to Canada and Mexico wouldn't be able to route all casual internet traffic for the entire US, but it would be enough just to get information into (or out of) the country and onto the mesh network. Once on the US portion of the mesh network, the external information could be distributed amongst the nodes since the mesh network is independent of government control. The mesh network would also easily be able to allow people within the country to coordinate things like protests, etc. Shutting down the internet in instances like Egypt isn't necessarily about cutting off access to the outside, it's also about cutting off the ability of the people easily organize themselves en masse.

Locke1689 16y ago
Mesh networks have never been practical on that scale and a number of recent DS papers (c.f. ACM digital archives) provide no support that it will ever be practical on that scale. Even if all the protocols are rewritten (as they will have to be), it will cost way too much money to switch. I personally believe the entire thing is a giant pipe dream, but whatever keeps people warm at night, I guess.
- wladimir 16y ago
  Yes it's pretty simple. If enough people are committed to it, it will work. Which can only be driven by neccesity. This might not be the case in western countries, right now, but once governments start to mess with communications infrastructure really badly (like happened in Egypt), people will use other, non-centralized ways to communciate. Also, don't underestimate innovation, back in the 80's many people would think a global computer network that could be used by everyone, and is a big part of daily life, was a pipe dream.
- pyre 16y ago