6 ms·

IMO the more simple explanation is they want this data to sell to data aggregators, who can in turn enrich the profile they have on you. There's a similar thing

by Joe-Z 7y ago

IMO the more simple explanation is they want this data to sell to data aggregators, who can in turn enrich the profile they have on you. There's a similar thing going on with smart TVs, right?

hkmurakami 7y ago
That seems pretty unlikely for a mid sized, independently operated/capitalized Japanese company tbh.
- Joe-Z 7y ago
  Why? Because they don't have enough users for this to be worth it you mean?
- phoe-krk 7y ago
  Unless they want easy money. Show me a modern mid-sized, independently operated/capitalized corporation that doesn't want it.
  - csallen 7y ago
    Having started numerous tech companies myself, interviewed hundreds of others who have, and started a community that instructions others on how to do so, I will say that HN's perception of how easy, profitable, and common it is to have a business model focused on selling data is overblown. I'd wager the vast majority of data collectors (e.g. Google Analytics accounts) just want it for their own internal decision-making and analysis.
    - phoe-krk 7y ago
      As much as I would like to believe you, I cannot. With literally almost every company around me gathering analytics and with every average person's operating system, web browser, social media, phones, televisions, smart locks, smart fridges, graphic card drivers and graphic tablets sending this data out in bulk, you are not going to convince me that the authors of all that software are siphoning data out of us all for nothing.
      - jasonlotito 7y ago
        > you are not going to convince me that the authors of all that software are siphoning data out of us all for nothing. That's not what they are saying at all, and suggesting it's for nothing proves you don't understand the value of using the data for internal decision making. Simply put: the main use of this data is for that reason: internal decision making. Answering questions like: * How are our customers using our products? * What errors are they experiencing? * What features are they using? * Where are they confused? * What features cause the most problems? * What feature should we work on next? These are all regular questions that are answered by collecting these types of metrics, including the one described in this post. Selling the data to third parties isn't easy. The data is generally gathered to inform product decisions, not to sell, so it's not in any easy format that makes it easy to sell. One has to go out of their way to sell this data, and the cost to put together this data in a way that's useful to sell would almost certainly cost more to setup and manage than they would get from such a small number of relative users. The simple fact is, everyone sends data back to their servers for collecting and parsing, including Apple, the company everyone puts on a pedestal for privacy. Simply put: show me the evidence they are selling the data to third parties for profit. Anything less is speculation.
    - JohnFen 7y ago
      Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. But trusting companies to do the right thing is untenable. That trust has been broken far too often, by far too many companies. The only rational position a concerned user can take is to assume that anybody collecting such sensitive information (particularly in a sneaky way) intends to monetize it or use it for purposes other than product improvement. And even if the data really will only be used for product development, getting the user's informed consent -- and refraining from data collection without it -- is critical. Further, using GA automatically means that the data is being used for Google's purposes as well as the application creator's.
  - kllrnohj 7y ago
    Can you point me towards the marketplace where I can sell data I've siphoned off? Thanks!
    - playeren 7y ago
      If you have large data-sets/streams, companies like Acxiom and Innovis are interested buyers. Are you trying to imply that brokering consumer data is a marginal or non-existant business?
      - kllrnohj 7y ago
        > Are you trying to imply that brokering consumer data is a marginal or non-existant business? For small/mid-size datasets (which is what we're talking about), yes, that's exactly what I'm implying. It's not actually easy for most companies to sell user data for a quick buck like is being claimed.
penagwin 7y ago
I know this is the popular conclusion - but from a developer perspective, data such as what software your product is used with is INCREDIBLY valuable for project planning and prioritization. People hate web tracking, but knowing what browsers or devices are visiting your website can be enormously helpful. Also I don't know all the details here - I know that Vizio TVs where collecting data and explicitly kept the IP and other personal data with it. I don't know if wacom is doing that. Now that said - I don't like that they're handing this data to Google through Google Analytics. I also think they should be far more up front about what they collect, what they use it for, etc.
- vageli 7y ago
  > I know this is the popular conclusion - but from a developer perspective, data such as what software your product is used with is INCREDIBLY valuable for project planning and prioritization. People hate web tracking, but knowing what browsers or devices are visiting your website can be enormously helpful. What happened to actually communicating with users to learn more about how they use the product?
  - Kalium 7y ago
    That assumes a great deal about both the resources available to do it and the ability to get responses from a representative sample of customers. It's not challenging to see why someone might choose a one-time cost in software engineering over an ongoing cost in communication.
    - adamc 7y ago
      It's not challenging, but it's wrong. If you want to explain it to them, making a binding promise of what it would be used for, and have it be opt-in, that would be another thing. It's not hard to see how to do it right.
      - Kalium 7y ago
        Morally and ethically, you're absolutely correct in every single possible way. I was attempting to illustrate the decision-making processes that may have led to this juncture and what happened to communicating with customers. Please accept my apologies, as I have plainly failed to be clear that this was not an argument as to the moral or ethical questions concerned. Again, you're completely right. It's not at all difficult to see the morally and ethically correct way to go about this.
pvaldes 7y ago
> IMO the more simple explanation is they want this data to sell to data aggregators Seems the obvious answer, yep.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
Rapzid 7y ago
It's certainly the more cynical explanation. I believe wanting it for product development is just as simple.
dwild 7y ago
Can you even export this information with PII on Google Analytics or only aggregate of that information?
- andybak 7y ago
  Only aggregate
  - dwild 7y ago
    Then if the goal was to sell, they wouldn't use Google Analytic.
FireBeyond 7y ago
It would be "simpler" to say, but that doesn't invalidate the other reason. My tablet behaves differently per application. If I typically have one app open only on one screen I can limit the tablets "workspace". Context-specific buttons based on app. And if you're doing that _and have build sufficient app infrastructure around it_ as Wacom has to support fairly custom per-app behavior, the more realistic conclusion is that they're trying to get more info on that - now you can argue about opt in on the "share experience data" privacy setting - and I would agree, absolutely. But "more simple to say that they're just selling data for money" is a pretty reductionist argument that jumps solely to the most negative possible motivation. "What's the worst they could be doing with it? Selling it? That's probably what they're doing, not making their tool more useful."
andybak 7y ago
> IMO the more simple explanation For me Occam's Razor points towards internal analytics.

by Joe-Z 7y ago

IMO the more simple explanation is they want this data to sell to data aggregators, who can in turn enrich the profile they have on you. There's a similar thing going on with smart TVs, right?

hkmurakami 7y ago

That seems pretty unlikely for a mid sized, independently operated/capitalized Japanese company tbh.

Joe-Z 7y ago
Why? Because they don't have enough users for this to be worth it you mean?
phoe-krk 7y ago
Unless they want easy money. Show me a modern mid-sized, independently operated/capitalized corporation that doesn't want it.
- csallen 7y ago
  Having started numerous tech companies myself, interviewed hundreds of others who have, and started a community that instructions others on how to do so, I will say that HN's perception of how easy, profitable, and common it is to have a business model focused on selling data is overblown. I'd wager the vast majority of data collectors (e.g. Google Analytics accounts) just want it for their own internal decision-making and analysis.
  - phoe-krk 7y ago
    As much as I would like to believe you, I cannot. With literally almost every company around me gathering analytics and with every average person's operating system, web browser, social media, phones, televisions, smart locks, smart fridges, graphic card drivers and graphic tablets sending this data out in bulk, you are not going to convince me that the authors of all that software are siphoning data out of us all for nothing.
    - jasonlotito 7y ago
      > you are not going to convince me that the authors of all that software are siphoning data out of us all for nothing. That's not what they are saying at all, and suggesting it's for nothing proves you don't understand the value of using the data for internal decision making. Simply put: the main use of this data is for that reason: internal decision making. Answering questions like: * How are our customers using our products? * What errors are they experiencing? * What features are they using? * Where are they confused? * What features cause the most problems? * What feature should we work on next? These are all regular questions that are answered by collecting these types of metrics, including the one described in this post. Selling the data to third parties isn't easy. The data is generally gathered to inform product decisions, not to sell, so it's not in any easy format that makes it easy to sell. One has to go out of their way to sell this data, and the cost to put together this data in a way that's useful to sell would almost certainly cost more to setup and manage than they would get from such a small number of relative users. The simple fact is, everyone sends data back to their servers for collecting and parsing, including Apple, the company everyone puts on a pedestal for privacy. Simply put: show me the evidence they are selling the data to third parties for profit. Anything less is speculation.
  - JohnFen 7y ago
    Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. But trusting companies to do the right thing is untenable. That trust has been broken far too often, by far too many companies. The only rational position a concerned user can take is to assume that anybody collecting such sensitive information (particularly in a sneaky way) intends to monetize it or use it for purposes other than product improvement. And even if the data really will only be used for product development, getting the user's informed consent -- and refraining from data collection without it -- is critical. Further, using GA automatically means that the data is being used for Google's purposes as well as the application creator's.
- kllrnohj 7y ago
  Can you point me towards the marketplace where I can sell data I've siphoned off? Thanks!
  - playeren 7y ago
    If you have large data-sets/streams, companies like Acxiom and Innovis are interested buyers. Are you trying to imply that brokering consumer data is a marginal or non-existant business?
    - kllrnohj 7y ago
      > Are you trying to imply that brokering consumer data is a marginal or non-existant business? For small/mid-size datasets (which is what we're talking about), yes, that's exactly what I'm implying. It's not actually easy for most companies to sell user data for a quick buck like is being claimed.

penagwin 7y ago

I know this is the popular conclusion - but from a developer perspective, data such as what software your product is used with is INCREDIBLY valuable for project planning and prioritization. People hate web tracking, but knowing what browsers or devices are visiting your website can be enormously helpful. Also I don't know all the details here - I know that Vizio TVs where collecting data and explicitly kept the IP and other personal data with it. I don't know if wacom is doing that. Now that said - I don't like that they're handing this data to Google through Google Analytics. I also think they should be far more up front about what they collect, what they use it for, etc.

vageli 7y ago
> I know this is the popular conclusion - but from a developer perspective, data such as what software your product is used with is INCREDIBLY valuable for project planning and prioritization. People hate web tracking, but knowing what browsers or devices are visiting your website can be enormously helpful. What happened to actually communicating with users to learn more about how they use the product?
- Kalium 7y ago
  That assumes a great deal about both the resources available to do it and the ability to get responses from a representative sample of customers. It's not challenging to see why someone might choose a one-time cost in software engineering over an ongoing cost in communication.
  - adamc 7y ago
    It's not challenging, but it's wrong. If you want to explain it to them, making a binding promise of what it would be used for, and have it be opt-in, that would be another thing. It's not hard to see how to do it right.
    - Kalium 7y ago
      Morally and ethically, you're absolutely correct in every single possible way. I was attempting to illustrate the decision-making processes that may have led to this juncture and what happened to communicating with customers. Please accept my apologies, as I have plainly failed to be clear that this was not an argument as to the moral or ethical questions concerned. Again, you're completely right. It's not at all difficult to see the morally and ethically correct way to go about this.

pvaldes 7y ago

> IMO the more simple explanation is they want this data to sell to data aggregators Seems the obvious answer, yep.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

Rapzid 7y ago

It's certainly the more cynical explanation. I believe wanting it for product development is just as simple.

dwild 7y ago

Can you even export this information with PII on Google Analytics or only aggregate of that information?

andybak 7y ago
Only aggregate
- dwild 7y ago
  Then if the goal was to sell, they wouldn't use Google Analytic.

FireBeyond 7y ago

It would be "simpler" to say, but that doesn't invalidate the other reason. My tablet behaves differently per application. If I typically have one app open only on one screen I can limit the tablets "workspace". Context-specific buttons based on app. And if you're doing that _and have build sufficient app infrastructure around it_ as Wacom has to support fairly custom per-app behavior, the more realistic conclusion is that they're trying to get more info on that - now you can argue about opt in on the "share experience data" privacy setting - and I would agree, absolutely. But "more simple to say that they're just selling data for money" is a pretty reductionist argument that jumps solely to the most negative possible motivation. "What's the worst they could be doing with it? Selling it? That's probably what they're doing, not making their tool more useful."

andybak 7y ago

> IMO the more simple explanation For me Occam's Razor points towards internal analytics.