4 ms·

I think he's refering to all the 'lesser men' especially all the men who allied with Sauron. Basically, the book discribes them all as short and with darker ski

I think he's refering to all the 'lesser men' especially all the men who allied with Sauron. Basically, the book discribes them all as short and with darker skin.

chc 16y ago
Not just the Haradrim (who basically equate to Africans, geographically speaking), although there is a wonderful description of them as "black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." The Easterlings are also evil. And Aragorn is noble and powerful and should be followed unquestioningly because he's distantly descended from royalty. And Denethor is crazy and wrong because he has the audacity to disagree with Aragorn despite not having royal blood. And elves are all naturally good and pure by nature of their race — to the point where they are basically immune to Sauron's corruption. And orcs are their inherently evil cousin race. There is not a single good orc in the whole world. You can feel OK about killing them with impunity. The only race that seems to actually have any moral subtlety is the Maiar, who can be good or evil with no obvious genetic reason. (I mean, they're still inherently superior beings, but they can at least be evil.)
- magicalist 16y ago
  lord. you're welcome to your interpretation of Tolkien's racism, but since you reference the Maiar, I'm going to assume you're being purposefully reductive to make your point. > And Aragorn is noble and powerful and should be followed unquestioningly because he's distantly descended from royalty. He's basically the archetypal benevolent dictator. He may get his claim to rule from his heritage, but he has practically the world's crappiest life until Sauron is destroyed, not out of circumstance but out of a sense of duty. He clearly believes that a king is in service to his subjects. > And Denethor is crazy and wrong because he has the audacity to disagree with Aragorn despite not having royal blood. a) Denethor had royal blood b) he was considered very wise and a great king of Gondor. It was only when he took up the tools of the enemy that he had his fall > And elves are all naturally good and pure by nature of their race — to the point where they are basically immune to Sauron's corruption. you reference the Maiar but you say this. have you read the silmarillion?? (perusing the wikipedia article will suffice) > And orcs are their inherently evil cousin race. There is not a single good orc in the whole world. You can feel OK about killing them with impunity. Will they are a fictional race specifically constructed to be a defilement of life. no, there's not a whole lot of subtle moral ambiguity there, but that's why it's good that there's more than one author ever. > The only race that seems to actually have any moral subtlety is the Maiar, who can be good or evil with no obvious genetic reason. (I mean, they're still inherently superior beings, but they can at least be evil.) This is the dumbest part. Look at the inherent contradictions of the numenoreans: benevolent and exploitive, generous but envious, and -- the ultimate sin in tolkien's universe -- so very proud. the dwarves often fought for good, but just as often did so for vengeful or petty reasons. the elves were just totally fucked, and even when they finally grew wise to the morgoths and the saurons of the world, they could find no peace in it, only weariness. the maiar, as you note, were often tempted to evil ways. and who caused all this? The ainur, the highest order of beings. And I don't just mean Melkor, though he of course sewed evil into every living thing. The Ainur were selfish with the elves, they were petty with Feanor and his sons, and they were cruel to humans. They might have wisdom "now," but, like the elves, they screwed everything up in the process.
  - tjogin 16y ago
    The point isn't which attributes the different races have, it's that their race defines them as a person -- not their upbringing, their experiences or their values. Their race.
    - thalur 16y ago
      Given that they mostly appear to grow up in racially homogeneous surroundings, can you really tell which attributes are genetic and which are environmental?
      - knowledgesale 16y ago
        ...nature versus nurture in MiddleEarth's community's uprising. ah, Hacker News...
- mih 16y ago
  It's not just the races, but the geographical descriptions as well which seem to be grounded in reality. *Middle Earth* - Europe *Numenor* (island to the west of ME) - Great Britain *Valinor* (distant land of the 'fair' elves, west of ME) - North America viz. USA *Mordor* (south of ME) - Area around Turkey *Harad Desert* (south-east of ME) - Middle East A quick look at the map of middle earth in LOTR and the Silmarillion kind of confirms this suspicion
  - arethuza 16y ago
    If you really want to analyze things like that (which I don't think is very wise) I'm pretty sure The Shire had to map to a Merry Olde England that probably never was. Having said that, I always wondered if Tolkien traveled by train through North East Scotland and the Tap o' Noth influenced Weathertop... but that is just me being silly.
- jokermatt999 16y ago
  For what it's worth, Tolkien himself later expressed regret over having an entirely evil irredeemable race.

I think he's refering to all the 'lesser men' especially all the men who allied with Sauron. Basically, the book discribes them all as short and with darker skin.

chc 16y ago

Not just the Haradrim (who basically equate to Africans, geographically speaking), although there is a wonderful description of them as "black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues." The Easterlings are also evil. And Aragorn is noble and powerful and should be followed unquestioningly because he's distantly descended from royalty. And Denethor is crazy and wrong because he has the audacity to disagree with Aragorn despite not having royal blood. And elves are all naturally good and pure by nature of their race — to the point where they are basically immune to Sauron's corruption. And orcs are their inherently evil cousin race. There is not a single good orc in the whole world. You can feel OK about killing them with impunity. The only race that seems to actually have any moral subtlety is the Maiar, who can be good or evil with no obvious genetic reason. (I mean, they're still inherently superior beings, but they can at least be evil.)

magicalist 16y ago
lord. you're welcome to your interpretation of Tolkien's racism, but since you reference the Maiar, I'm going to assume you're being purposefully reductive to make your point. > And Aragorn is noble and powerful and should be followed unquestioningly because he's distantly descended from royalty. He's basically the archetypal benevolent dictator. He may get his claim to rule from his heritage, but he has practically the world's crappiest life until Sauron is destroyed, not out of circumstance but out of a sense of duty. He clearly believes that a king is in service to his subjects. > And Denethor is crazy and wrong because he has the audacity to disagree with Aragorn despite not having royal blood. a) Denethor had royal blood b) he was considered very wise and a great king of Gondor. It was only when he took up the tools of the enemy that he had his fall > And elves are all naturally good and pure by nature of their race — to the point where they are basically immune to Sauron's corruption. you reference the Maiar but you say this. have you read the silmarillion?? (perusing the wikipedia article will suffice) > And orcs are their inherently evil cousin race. There is not a single good orc in the whole world. You can feel OK about killing them with impunity. Will they are a fictional race specifically constructed to be a defilement of life. no, there's not a whole lot of subtle moral ambiguity there, but that's why it's good that there's more than one author ever. > The only race that seems to actually have any moral subtlety is the Maiar, who can be good or evil with no obvious genetic reason. (I mean, they're still inherently superior beings, but they can at least be evil.) This is the dumbest part. Look at the inherent contradictions of the numenoreans: benevolent and exploitive, generous but envious, and -- the ultimate sin in tolkien's universe -- so very proud. the dwarves often fought for good, but just as often did so for vengeful or petty reasons. the elves were just totally fucked, and even when they finally grew wise to the morgoths and the saurons of the world, they could find no peace in it, only weariness. the maiar, as you note, were often tempted to evil ways. and who caused all this? The ainur, the highest order of beings. And I don't just mean Melkor, though he of course sewed evil into every living thing. The Ainur were selfish with the elves, they were petty with Feanor and his sons, and they were cruel to humans. They might have wisdom "now," but, like the elves, they screwed everything up in the process.
- tjogin 16y ago
  The point isn't which attributes the different races have, it's that their race defines them as a person -- not their upbringing, their experiences or their values. Their race.
  - thalur 16y ago
    Given that they mostly appear to grow up in racially homogeneous surroundings, can you really tell which attributes are genetic and which are environmental?
    - knowledgesale 16y ago
      ...nature versus nurture in MiddleEarth's community's uprising. ah, Hacker News...
mih 16y ago
It's not just the races, but the geographical descriptions as well which seem to be grounded in reality. *Middle Earth* - Europe *Numenor* (island to the west of ME) - Great Britain *Valinor* (distant land of the 'fair' elves, west of ME) - North America viz. USA *Mordor* (south of ME) - Area around Turkey *Harad Desert* (south-east of ME) - Middle East A quick look at the map of middle earth in LOTR and the Silmarillion kind of confirms this suspicion
- arethuza 16y ago
  If you really want to analyze things like that (which I don't think is very wise) I'm pretty sure The Shire had to map to a Merry Olde England that probably never was. Having said that, I always wondered if Tolkien traveled by train through North East Scotland and the Tap o' Noth influenced Weathertop... but that is just me being silly.
jokermatt999 16y ago
For what it's worth, Tolkien himself later expressed regret over having an entirely evil irredeemable race.