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> That said, the problem is that average wages don't rise as fast as the cost of living does. And that's presumably part of the problem > But that housing is

> That said, the problem is that average wages don't rise as fast as the cost of living does. And that's presumably part of the problem > But that housing is so expensive is a failure of local government policies, and by extension, the voters who support those policies. Housing doesn't have to be super expensive. I'd be interested to know precisely which local government policies are failing here. To a naive outsider, it sounds as if its likely that well-off incomers are displacing existing populations from desirable areas/properties. What are the failures of local government housing policy? Failure to relax standards so that existing residence can move into nice high-density prefab blocks built on existing green-space?

TulliusCicero 7y ago
Failure to allow supply to meet demand. Zoning regulations constrain how much housing can be built to a very low amount on most residential land. No surprise that prices would rise in that environment, this is barely econ 101, it's like high school level economics. Like, when demand goes straight up and supply can't go nearly as fast, what else would anyone expect? I don't understand why everyone always acts so shocked that the completely predictable happens over and over. Seattle has actually been much better about allowing more housing than some peer cities, like SF. But compared to cities in most other developed countries, the situation is still awful. For example, the kind of very low density zoning that is commonplace in Seattle literally doesn't exist anywhere in Japan or Germany. I don't think you'll find many urbanists or YIMBYs pushing to demolish greenspace like parks or trails. I'm certainly not; if anything, I'd prefer to push to acquire more greenspace, perhaps by redeveloping surface parking lots. As for housing needs, there's plenty of space where things are already developed.
- ranman 7y ago
  Housing doesn’t fit the traditional supply/demand model b/c of the time constraint. It takes time to build housing but companies can grow and hire faster than housing can be built. You don’t want to overbuild and create ghost towns where developers go bankrupt trying to sell (a couple of these places exist in Europe, Canada, and America - I think China too but I haven’t seen it in person), but you don’t want to underbuild a la SF. So I agree with you that the zoning laws have a lot to do with it - but housing isn’t an instant commodity either - it can take many years, esp for high density projects. *typed with thumbs
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    It doesn't take time to build warehouses and factories?
  - JackFr 7y ago
    Housing doesn’t fit the traditional supply/demand model b/c incumbent owners are able to increase there wealth by using the power of the state to constrain supply through zoning and other regulatory means. The time constraint you mention is often artificial, six months for permitting here and two months for an impact study there. Actual construction is surprisingly fast.
  - hx87 7y ago
    Companies can't grow faster than the supply of office space, which also has time constraints.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    What allows companies to hire faster than cities can grow? The companies still need office space that means more and bigger buildings, it's the same damn problem as housing. ...with one significant difference: communities are generally much more amenable to increased jobs than increased residents. And companies growing fast usually are cool with huge buildings in the city center, which is the one place where cities are generally fine with high density. Getting cities to be okay with, say, low-rise housing developments across the city is a much harder ask. So it really does just come down to zoning and zoning-adjacent concerns (e.g. community input meetings where developments get shot down).
  - ksec 7y ago
    Overbuilt is not a function of supply and demand, but more often speculation.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    I'll take the occasional unlucky overbuild if it means sanity in the bay area, Seattle, NYC, Boston, etc.
  - pathseeker 7y ago
- Angostura 7y ago
  > Like, when demand goes straight up and supply can't go nearly as fast, what else would anyone expect? I don't understand why everyone always acts so shocked that the completely predictable happens over and over. Thay aren't shocked, as you say its a predictable side effect. That's why cities have to be careful when saying yes please to the economic growth promised by big companies - it can have a detrimental effects on the people living there. Zoning regulations aren't usually arbitrary (I can't speak for any particular city's ordinances) they are there to ensure that minimum housing standards are met, that people don't find themselves living too close to heavy industrial areas, that the infrastructure and green space can cope.
  - TulliusCicero 7y ago
    I'm afraid you're wrong: there are many, MANY supply and demand denialists around, who think it doesn't apply to housing. Believe me, I've argued with them. They see that brand new housing is more expensive than the decades-old housing it replaced, and go, "See?? It didn't help the prices at all!" > Zoning regulations aren't usually arbitrary True, in many cases they were designed to keep out undesirables, like people who are poor, or non-white. That's not arbitrary, it's intentionally bigoted. Nobody's suggesting dumping factories into residential areas, or relaxing basic safety standards. That type of zoning is absolutely fine. The biggest reason is political, that people have NIMBY tendencies: yes there needs to be more housing somewhere, but put it somewhere else please. I don't want to have to worry about parking or see unsightly apartments on my block. I don't dispute that infrastructure is a concern, but it's not a blocker. Cities growing quickly isn't some unfathomable phenomenon of the 21st century, the logistics can be handled if people want it politically.
    - ksec 7y ago
      >I'm afraid you're wrong: there are many, MANY supply and demand denialists around, who think it doesn't apply to housing. Are they really in denial though, I mean many want the housing prices to go up because it means their housing ( asset ) increases as well. So there is clearly a conflict of interest.

TulliusCicero 7y ago

Failure to allow supply to meet demand. Zoning regulations constrain how much housing can be built to a very low amount on most residential land. No surprise that prices would rise in that environment, this is barely econ 101, it's like high school level economics. Like, when demand goes straight up and supply can't go nearly as fast, what else would anyone expect? I don't understand why everyone always acts so shocked that the completely predictable happens over and over. Seattle has actually been much better about allowing more housing than some peer cities, like SF. But compared to cities in most other developed countries, the situation is still awful. For example, the kind of very low density zoning that is commonplace in Seattle literally doesn't exist anywhere in Japan or Germany. I don't think you'll find many urbanists or YIMBYs pushing to demolish greenspace like parks or trails. I'm certainly not; if anything, I'd prefer to push to acquire more greenspace, perhaps by redeveloping surface parking lots. As for housing needs, there's plenty of space where things are already developed.

ranman 7y ago
Housing doesn’t fit the traditional supply/demand model b/c of the time constraint. It takes time to build housing but companies can grow and hire faster than housing can be built. You don’t want to overbuild and create ghost towns where developers go bankrupt trying to sell (a couple of these places exist in Europe, Canada, and America - I think China too but I haven’t seen it in person), but you don’t want to underbuild a la SF. So I agree with you that the zoning laws have a lot to do with it - but housing isn’t an instant commodity either - it can take many years, esp for high density projects. *typed with thumbs
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  It doesn't take time to build warehouses and factories?
- JackFr 7y ago
  Housing doesn’t fit the traditional supply/demand model b/c incumbent owners are able to increase there wealth by using the power of the state to constrain supply through zoning and other regulatory means. The time constraint you mention is often artificial, six months for permitting here and two months for an impact study there. Actual construction is surprisingly fast.
- hx87 7y ago
  Companies can't grow faster than the supply of office space, which also has time constraints.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  What allows companies to hire faster than cities can grow? The companies still need office space that means more and bigger buildings, it's the same damn problem as housing. ...with one significant difference: communities are generally much more amenable to increased jobs than increased residents. And companies growing fast usually are cool with huge buildings in the city center, which is the one place where cities are generally fine with high density. Getting cities to be okay with, say, low-rise housing developments across the city is a much harder ask. So it really does just come down to zoning and zoning-adjacent concerns (e.g. community input meetings where developments get shot down).
- ksec 7y ago
  Overbuilt is not a function of supply and demand, but more often speculation.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  I'll take the occasional unlucky overbuild if it means sanity in the bay area, Seattle, NYC, Boston, etc.
- pathseeker 7y ago
Angostura 7y ago
> Like, when demand goes straight up and supply can't go nearly as fast, what else would anyone expect? I don't understand why everyone always acts so shocked that the completely predictable happens over and over. Thay aren't shocked, as you say its a predictable side effect. That's why cities have to be careful when saying yes please to the economic growth promised by big companies - it can have a detrimental effects on the people living there. Zoning regulations aren't usually arbitrary (I can't speak for any particular city's ordinances) they are there to ensure that minimum housing standards are met, that people don't find themselves living too close to heavy industrial areas, that the infrastructure and green space can cope.
- TulliusCicero 7y ago
  I'm afraid you're wrong: there are many, MANY supply and demand denialists around, who think it doesn't apply to housing. Believe me, I've argued with them. They see that brand new housing is more expensive than the decades-old housing it replaced, and go, "See?? It didn't help the prices at all!" > Zoning regulations aren't usually arbitrary True, in many cases they were designed to keep out undesirables, like people who are poor, or non-white. That's not arbitrary, it's intentionally bigoted. Nobody's suggesting dumping factories into residential areas, or relaxing basic safety standards. That type of zoning is absolutely fine. The biggest reason is political, that people have NIMBY tendencies: yes there needs to be more housing somewhere, but put it somewhere else please. I don't want to have to worry about parking or see unsightly apartments on my block. I don't dispute that infrastructure is a concern, but it's not a blocker. Cities growing quickly isn't some unfathomable phenomenon of the 21st century, the logistics can be handled if people want it politically.
  - ksec 7y ago
    >I'm afraid you're wrong: there are many, MANY supply and demand denialists around, who think it doesn't apply to housing. Are they really in denial though, I mean many want the housing prices to go up because it means their housing ( asset ) increases as well. So there is clearly a conflict of interest.