7 ms·

Sand dunes can 'communicate' with each other

93 points by dnetesn 7y ago

jacobush 7y ago
"but as the experiment continued, the front dune began to slow down, until the two dunes were moving at almost the same speed" One of my armchair imaginary projects is creating a fleet of solar powered robotic vehicles, which use solar sintering to fuse a grid over sand dunes, by slowly tracing a grid pattern over an area. The assumption being, that this will over time bind the dunes. The article above gives me hope that not only might the dune be arrested in such a fashion stop moving itself, but it might also deflect neighbouring dunes through the "communication" mentioned in the article! Perhaps the sintering can also be adapted to install tiny dew catching features which might trap enough moisture for vegetation to take hold in the dunes. (In an almost "3D-print" fashion.) (I got the idea watching this: https://vimeo.com/25401444 https://vimeo.com/25401444 "Markus Kayser - Solar Sinter Project")
- dwiel 7y ago
  I like your idea. Others have also successfully experimented with a more manual version of planting trees, bushes, etc. Many die early on, but the ones that survive help bind the sand, collect dew and create shade for the next generation. Would be cool to include tree planting as one of the skills this fantasy robot takes advantage of.
- nwsm 7y ago
  That was one of the coolest videos I've ever watched.
- bigiain 7y ago
  Nice. Now I'm imagining a giant (orbital?) laser-sintering 3D printer, beaming down onto deserts and leaving behind glass houses as moving sand dunes encroach and recede... (VC's, please form an orderly queue in my inbox...)
- toast0 7y ago
  Robotic solar death rays sounds like a bunch of fun, but stopping the movement of sand destroys the dune ecosystem. You can look into the history of the Oregon Sand Dunes and how invasive European beach grass stabilized the dunes and changed the ecology. We don't live on Arrakis; as of now, there's no need to fight against natural sandy habitat.
undersuit 7y ago
Sand dunes are real world cellular automata, neat.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  And piles of sand are real world the Abelian Sandpile Models! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abelian_sandpile_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abelian_sandpile_model And the snozberries taste like snozberries!
flareback 7y ago
This is interesting but I think the word 'communicate' is bit of a stretch. Why do people always try to anthropomorphize things?
- TheNorthman 7y ago
  I suppose for the same reason classical fairy-tales do the same. My best guess would be some desire to relate the external world to internal experiences. It's also an important didactic method in pedagogy. You might call it a form of "Student-centered learning", where a significant effort is made to meet the student where they are. Their desires and experiences should guide them to understand the external world through themselves.
- saltyfamiliar 7y ago
  Communicate: 1. Share or exchange information, news or ideas. 2. Impart or pass on (information, news or ideas) I think it can be argued that to say sand dunes communicate with each other is not anthropomorphization at all. I didn't take it that way and I doubt very many people took it to mean that sand dunes were exhibiting sentience and chit-chatting about the weather.
  - flareback 7y ago
    but the article state "This interaction is controlled by turbulent swirls from the upstream dune". Are the sand dunes themselves willfully creating these swirls? Could they choose not to create the swirls?
    - SonicScrub 7y ago
      Nowhere in the definition is intent specified. This article is hardly the only place the word "communicate" is used to describe the behaviour of inanimate objects. For example, "communicate" is a handy descriptor in gas dynamics to explain the differences between supersonic and subsonic flows. In subsonic flow, the particles can communicate with upstream particles, but in supersonic flows they cannot. This is a useful way to conceptualize the differences between the two flow types, and can help a student gain an intuitive understanding of why a wing flap that works in subsonic flow may not work in a supersonic flow without a radical redesign. In this situation, the use of the word communicate is accurate to the definition, and also a useful tool for gaining an understanding of what is happening. The word is used because it is useful. It serves a purpose beyond anthropomorphizing for the sake of anthropomorphizing.
Y-Bopinator 7y ago
The falling sand game! I loved that game. Is this a remake?
Y-Bopinator 7y ago
I think the proper term is similar to harmonic resonance
graphememes 7y ago
TL;DR they stand in the way of wind and create turbulence which impacts the ones behind them and cause them to get in sync.
odomojuli 7y ago
Alongside cellular automata, you can also simulate a sand dune model using reaction-diffusion systems such as a modified Belousov-Zhabotinsky model. The 'reaction' here is the aeolian process of wind being funneled against piles of sand. 'Communicate' is perhaps a stretch, really what's happening is that in a grid simulation, all the computation is done in parallel from a point to its neighborhoods, with each step simulating exchange of information to alter the state of each cell. For most simple models, this merely entails flipping the state between active and dormant (so 0 and 1) for each cell. And most models only consider adjacent neighborhoods (such as von Neumann or Moore). That is to say, you can observe complex global behavior based on simple local patterns.

93 points by dnetesn 7y ago

"but as the experiment continued, the front dune began to slow down, until the two dunes were moving at almost the same speed" One of my armchair imaginary projects is creating a fleet of solar powered robotic vehicles, which use solar sintering to fuse a grid over sand dunes, by slowly tracing a grid pattern over an area. The assumption being, that this will over time bind the dunes. The article above gives me hope that not only might the dune be arrested in such a fashion stop moving itself, but it might also deflect neighbouring dunes through the "communication" mentioned in the article! Perhaps the sintering can also be adapted to install tiny dew catching features which might trap enough moisture for vegetation to take hold in the dunes. (In an almost "3D-print" fashion.) (I got the idea watching this: https://vimeo.com/25401444 https://vimeo.com/25401444 "Markus Kayser - Solar Sinter Project")

dwiel 7y ago
I like your idea. Others have also successfully experimented with a more manual version of planting trees, bushes, etc. Many die early on, but the ones that survive help bind the sand, collect dew and create shade for the next generation. Would be cool to include tree planting as one of the skills this fantasy robot takes advantage of.
nwsm 7y ago
That was one of the coolest videos I've ever watched.
bigiain 7y ago
Nice. Now I'm imagining a giant (orbital?) laser-sintering 3D printer, beaming down onto deserts and leaving behind glass houses as moving sand dunes encroach and recede... (VC's, please form an orderly queue in my inbox...)
toast0 7y ago
Robotic solar death rays sounds like a bunch of fun, but stopping the movement of sand destroys the dune ecosystem. You can look into the history of the Oregon Sand Dunes and how invasive European beach grass stabilized the dunes and changed the ecology. We don't live on Arrakis; as of now, there's no need to fight against natural sandy habitat.

undersuit 7y ago

Sand dunes are real world cellular automata, neat.

DonHopkins 7y ago
And piles of sand are real world the Abelian Sandpile Models! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abelian_sandpile_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abelian_sandpile_model And the snozberries taste like snozberries!

flareback 7y ago

This is interesting but I think the word 'communicate' is bit of a stretch. Why do people always try to anthropomorphize things?

TheNorthman 7y ago
I suppose for the same reason classical fairy-tales do the same. My best guess would be some desire to relate the external world to internal experiences. It's also an important didactic method in pedagogy. You might call it a form of "Student-centered learning", where a significant effort is made to meet the student where they are. Their desires and experiences should guide them to understand the external world through themselves.
saltyfamiliar 7y ago
Communicate: 1. Share or exchange information, news or ideas. 2. Impart or pass on (information, news or ideas) I think it can be argued that to say sand dunes communicate with each other is not anthropomorphization at all. I didn't take it that way and I doubt very many people took it to mean that sand dunes were exhibiting sentience and chit-chatting about the weather.
- flareback 7y ago
  but the article state "This interaction is controlled by turbulent swirls from the upstream dune". Are the sand dunes themselves willfully creating these swirls? Could they choose not to create the swirls?
  - SonicScrub 7y ago
    Nowhere in the definition is intent specified. This article is hardly the only place the word "communicate" is used to describe the behaviour of inanimate objects. For example, "communicate" is a handy descriptor in gas dynamics to explain the differences between supersonic and subsonic flows. In subsonic flow, the particles can communicate with upstream particles, but in supersonic flows they cannot. This is a useful way to conceptualize the differences between the two flow types, and can help a student gain an intuitive understanding of why a wing flap that works in subsonic flow may not work in a supersonic flow without a radical redesign. In this situation, the use of the word communicate is accurate to the definition, and also a useful tool for gaining an understanding of what is happening. The word is used because it is useful. It serves a purpose beyond anthropomorphizing for the sake of anthropomorphizing.

Y-Bopinator 7y ago

The falling sand game! I loved that game. Is this a remake?

Y-Bopinator 7y ago

I think the proper term is similar to harmonic resonance

graphememes 7y ago

TL;DR they stand in the way of wind and create turbulence which impacts the ones behind them and cause them to get in sync.

odomojuli 7y ago

Alongside cellular automata, you can also simulate a sand dune model using reaction-diffusion systems such as a modified Belousov-Zhabotinsky model. The 'reaction' here is the aeolian process of wind being funneled against piles of sand. 'Communicate' is perhaps a stretch, really what's happening is that in a grid simulation, all the computation is done in parallel from a point to its neighborhoods, with each step simulating exchange of information to alter the state of each cell. For most simple models, this merely entails flipping the state between active and dormant (so 0 and 1) for each cell. And most models only consider adjacent neighborhoods (such as von Neumann or Moore). That is to say, you can observe complex global behavior based on simple local patterns.