8 ms·

Petrol and diesel car sales ban brought forward to 2035

34 points by sohkamyung 7y ago

tonyedgecombe 7y ago
Investment in the UK car industry has plumetted since the referendum was called.[1] When the current government came into power I imagined they would do whatever they could to rescue that situation. Now I'm wondering if they have come to the conclusion that it can't be saved. I couldn't imagine them making decisions like this otherwise. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49170387 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49170387
- rjsw 7y ago
  I could see Nissan staying in the UK, just to produce the Leaf for the home market, I'm expecting the other car companies to close though.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    I'll be surprised if they are still here in ten years. Nissan is interesting as since Ghosn has gone their interest in EV's seems to be waning.
- jajag 7y ago
  That's a highly cynical view. On the one hand, Nissan are reportedly considering ramping up production in the UK [1]; on the other, the UK government no doubt realises that there is considerable economical potential in green energy. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/03/nissan-eu-uk-hard-brexit https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/03/nissan-eu-u...
  - ben_w 7y ago
    Makes sense that a few of the companies would do that — from what I’ve been hearing, the problem with cars in particular is post-customs-union cross-border manufacturing playing badly with rules of origin and just-in-time manufacturing, so I am expecting spring like 75% shutting down U.K. factories and 25% expanding U.K. factories at the same time and for the same reasons. > That's a highly cynical view. The current UK government is full of people who have repeatedly demonstrated that they don’t know how the UK government functions. The cynicism is deserved.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    >That's a highly cynical view. The figures don't lie, investment has plumetted. If they were serious about keeping the UK car industry then we would be heading towards close integration with the EU. That is the opposite of where we are going.
- kwhitefoot 7y ago
  > When the current government came into power I imagined they would do whatever they could to rescue that situation. What on earth led you to believe that? Nothing that any British government of recent vintage has actually done supports it. They seem to be utterly uninterested in UK based manufacturing and what little is left is mostly owned by foreign entities. The same goes for service industries such as rail where ideology prevents long term state ownership but only if the state in question is the UK. See for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB_Cargo_UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB_Cargo_UK which describes a British rail freight company wholly owned by Deutsche Bahn which is wholly owned by the German Federal government. I don't mean that DB is necessarily bad for either the company in question or the UK but it seems odd that so much of that sort of thing seems to happen in the UK but seems less popular in other countries.
  - tonyedgecombe 7y ago
    What on earth led you to believe that? It does look like wishful thinking now :)
adrianN 7y ago
Excellent news. I wish the EU would follow suit. Does anyone know how it is in the UK wrt heating with fossil fuels? Is there a ban on the horizon there too?
- Steve44 7y ago
  > Does anyone know how it is in the UK wrt heating with fossil fuels? Is there a ban on the horizon there too? There was a planned ban on gas heating for new build houses from 2025[1] announced last year. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47559920 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47559920
- radicalbyte 7y ago
  For heating it makes the most sense to use gas and put subsidies into insulation. In The Netherlands we are - for some boneheaded reason - killing gas and replacing it with burning wood. With the subsidy spent on that we could insulate every building in the country to a high level and have a massive war chest left over to further build out EV infrastructure.
  - FooHentai 7y ago
    Modern wood burners are quite efficient at full combustion and wood is a renewable, carbon neutral fuel if sourced from sustainable forestry. Pellet burners are particularly excellent. It's counter-intuitive but compared to burning non-renewable, a valid option for reducing co2 emissions.
  - Angostura 7y ago
    Meanwhile in the UK... about 10 years ago I bought a wood burning stove that was built to meet UK clean air regulations. I have a friend with a wood, so I thought I would do my bit for CO2 emissions Unfortunately, currently particulate pollution is enemy number 1, so wood burning stoves get you tutted at.
    - bogle 7y ago
      "More or Less" on BBC Radio 4 did an investigation of the supposed particulate pollution from wood burners. Basically, although data is thin (and misused by HM Gov), if you have a modern stove and properly dried wood you won't be a particulate polluter.
kerrsclyde 7y ago
Hopefully this commitment won't go the way of other long term targets, like the 2020 budget surplus plan...
lucian1900 7y ago
This is not necessarily good. There is not enough lithium on earth to replace all UK cars with electric ones. Worse still, the lithium that does exist would require violence to extract profitably, as we've recently seen with the US-backed fascist coup in Bolivia. We need to seriously consider biofuels instead. Biodiesel in modern engines in particular is very efficient. https://medium.com/@Grossmanite/the-green-new-deal-is-species-suicide-only-a-hemp-based-industrial-revolution-can-save-earths-f9c3dc29c4e3 https://medium.com/@Grossmanite/the-green-new-deal-is-specie...
- mrob 7y ago
  Sodium-ion batteries aren't as good as lithium-ion, but not all vehicles need top performance. There's more than enough sodium. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery
- martius 7y ago
  There is probably no need to replace all UK cars either.
  - jfax 7y ago
    My thoughts exactly. We will still need cars of course, but don't necessarily need to replace them one-to-one. I hope alternative transport will fulfill most needs in a way that will reduce car ownership in the first place.
    - bogle 7y ago
      This is my hope, too. Already I can cycle almost anywhere in my city but it's harder for those who are less confident on the roads (or those who can't bounce when an accident does occur or can't face down some dangerous driver). There are now ambitious plans for cycling, and micro-mobility, infrastructure in UK cities but they need our central government(s) to stop being so car-centric (still!) and make the proper investments.
  - bogle 7y ago
trollied 7y ago
I've no idea how they'd even begin to create the infrastructure to support a large amount of electric cars. In a typical street of terraced houses in the UK, there are no driveways - In fact, 32% of the population rely on on-street parking. You park on the road. How are you supposed to charge your vehicle? Is the plan to line streets with unsightly charging points?
- jlarcombe 7y ago
  There are already some of these dotted around. On a quiet side round near my house, for example. Presumably the residents have requested them in this case, but they're not too ugly.
- matthewmacleod 7y ago
  On-street charging is already available though a fair number of ubitricity charging points, who install 5kW sockets in lamp posts and bollards. They're basically invisible – there are a bunch of them in my area in London that I didn't even know about until I was specifically researching.
  - buro9 7y ago
    This depends on the borough. My London borough (Haringey) does not do this and only use the Source network for which my home is equidistant to several... being more than 1km from all of them. No letters or pleas, or offers from myself to fund installation of lamp post charges in line with govt grants have been successful. I'm going to be purchasing another fossil fuel vehicle as it's clear that electric won't work for me unless I can get the distance to a charger below 100m. Oh... and charging from the property by running a cable over or across a path is apparently against the law: "Highways Act 1980, it is illegal for any person to place or run a cable or wire along or across any part of a public highway. So running a charging cable across a footway is not permitted" (excerpt from council reply to my enquiries).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- adrianN 7y ago
velox_io 7y ago
There's no mention of one of the worst culprits, buses with diesel engines. Plus, outside of rush-hour they're driving around virtually empty.
- cowsandmilk 7y ago
  > outside of rush-hour they're driving around virtually empty. Even during rush hour, most cars drive around virtually empty.
- Steve44 7y ago
  I know this is London only but they are changing over. I think generally the busses have a ten year life and more will be changing as time goes on. "London’s electric bus fleet becomes the largest in Europe" https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/september/london-s-electric-bus-fleet-becomes-the-largest-in-europe https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/septem...
VBprogrammer 7y ago
If I had just one wish about this legislation it would be that a standards body was created to limit the number of form factors that can be used for batteries. Being able to buy a car and know that you'll be able to change the battery in 10 years time with a compatible unit (possibly even with better capacity) would take much of the anxiety out of the electric car transition.

34 points by sohkamyung 7y ago

Investment in the UK car industry has plumetted since the referendum was called.[1] When the current government came into power I imagined they would do whatever they could to rescue that situation. Now I'm wondering if they have come to the conclusion that it can't be saved. I couldn't imagine them making decisions like this otherwise. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49170387 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49170387

rjsw 7y ago
I could see Nissan staying in the UK, just to produce the Leaf for the home market, I'm expecting the other car companies to close though.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  I'll be surprised if they are still here in ten years. Nissan is interesting as since Ghosn has gone their interest in EV's seems to be waning.
jajag 7y ago
That's a highly cynical view. On the one hand, Nissan are reportedly considering ramping up production in the UK [1]; on the other, the UK government no doubt realises that there is considerable economical potential in green energy. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/03/nissan-eu-uk-hard-brexit https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/03/nissan-eu-u...
- ben_w 7y ago
  Makes sense that a few of the companies would do that — from what I’ve been hearing, the problem with cars in particular is post-customs-union cross-border manufacturing playing badly with rules of origin and just-in-time manufacturing, so I am expecting spring like 75% shutting down U.K. factories and 25% expanding U.K. factories at the same time and for the same reasons. > That's a highly cynical view. The current UK government is full of people who have repeatedly demonstrated that they don’t know how the UK government functions. The cynicism is deserved.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  >That's a highly cynical view. The figures don't lie, investment has plumetted. If they were serious about keeping the UK car industry then we would be heading towards close integration with the EU. That is the opposite of where we are going.
kwhitefoot 7y ago
> When the current government came into power I imagined they would do whatever they could to rescue that situation. What on earth led you to believe that? Nothing that any British government of recent vintage has actually done supports it. They seem to be utterly uninterested in UK based manufacturing and what little is left is mostly owned by foreign entities. The same goes for service industries such as rail where ideology prevents long term state ownership but only if the state in question is the UK. See for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB_Cargo_UK https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DB_Cargo_UK which describes a British rail freight company wholly owned by Deutsche Bahn which is wholly owned by the German Federal government. I don't mean that DB is necessarily bad for either the company in question or the UK but it seems odd that so much of that sort of thing seems to happen in the UK but seems less popular in other countries.
- tonyedgecombe 7y ago
  What on earth led you to believe that? It does look like wishful thinking now :)

adrianN 7y ago

Excellent news. I wish the EU would follow suit. Does anyone know how it is in the UK wrt heating with fossil fuels? Is there a ban on the horizon there too?

Steve44 7y ago
> Does anyone know how it is in the UK wrt heating with fossil fuels? Is there a ban on the horizon there too? There was a planned ban on gas heating for new build houses from 2025[1] announced last year. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47559920 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47559920
radicalbyte 7y ago
For heating it makes the most sense to use gas and put subsidies into insulation. In The Netherlands we are - for some boneheaded reason - killing gas and replacing it with burning wood. With the subsidy spent on that we could insulate every building in the country to a high level and have a massive war chest left over to further build out EV infrastructure.
- FooHentai 7y ago
  Modern wood burners are quite efficient at full combustion and wood is a renewable, carbon neutral fuel if sourced from sustainable forestry. Pellet burners are particularly excellent. It's counter-intuitive but compared to burning non-renewable, a valid option for reducing co2 emissions.
- Angostura 7y ago
  Meanwhile in the UK... about 10 years ago I bought a wood burning stove that was built to meet UK clean air regulations. I have a friend with a wood, so I thought I would do my bit for CO2 emissions Unfortunately, currently particulate pollution is enemy number 1, so wood burning stoves get you tutted at.
  - bogle 7y ago
    "More or Less" on BBC Radio 4 did an investigation of the supposed particulate pollution from wood burners. Basically, although data is thin (and misused by HM Gov), if you have a modern stove and properly dried wood you won't be a particulate polluter.

kerrsclyde 7y ago

Hopefully this commitment won't go the way of other long term targets, like the 2020 budget surplus plan...

lucian1900 7y ago

This is not necessarily good. There is not enough lithium on earth to replace all UK cars with electric ones. Worse still, the lithium that does exist would require violence to extract profitably, as we've recently seen with the US-backed fascist coup in Bolivia. We need to seriously consider biofuels instead. Biodiesel in modern engines in particular is very efficient. https://medium.com/@Grossmanite/the-green-new-deal-is-species-suicide-only-a-hemp-based-industrial-revolution-can-save-earths-f9c3dc29c4e3 https://medium.com/@Grossmanite/the-green-new-deal-is-specie...

mrob 7y ago
Sodium-ion batteries aren't as good as lithium-ion, but not all vehicles need top performance. There's more than enough sodium. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery
martius 7y ago
There is probably no need to replace all UK cars either.
- jfax 7y ago
  My thoughts exactly. We will still need cars of course, but don't necessarily need to replace them one-to-one. I hope alternative transport will fulfill most needs in a way that will reduce car ownership in the first place.
  - bogle 7y ago
    This is my hope, too. Already I can cycle almost anywhere in my city but it's harder for those who are less confident on the roads (or those who can't bounce when an accident does occur or can't face down some dangerous driver). There are now ambitious plans for cycling, and micro-mobility, infrastructure in UK cities but they need our central government(s) to stop being so car-centric (still!) and make the proper investments.
- bogle 7y ago

trollied 7y ago

I've no idea how they'd even begin to create the infrastructure to support a large amount of electric cars. In a typical street of terraced houses in the UK, there are no driveways - In fact, 32% of the population rely on on-street parking. You park on the road. How are you supposed to charge your vehicle? Is the plan to line streets with unsightly charging points?

jlarcombe 7y ago
There are already some of these dotted around. On a quiet side round near my house, for example. Presumably the residents have requested them in this case, but they're not too ugly.
matthewmacleod 7y ago
On-street charging is already available though a fair number of ubitricity charging points, who install 5kW sockets in lamp posts and bollards. They're basically invisible – there are a bunch of them in my area in London that I didn't even know about until I was specifically researching.
- buro9 7y ago
  This depends on the borough. My London borough (Haringey) does not do this and only use the Source network for which my home is equidistant to several... being more than 1km from all of them. No letters or pleas, or offers from myself to fund installation of lamp post charges in line with govt grants have been successful. I'm going to be purchasing another fossil fuel vehicle as it's clear that electric won't work for me unless I can get the distance to a charger below 100m. Oh... and charging from the property by running a cable over or across a path is apparently against the law: "Highways Act 1980, it is illegal for any person to place or run a cable or wire along or across any part of a public highway. So running a charging cable across a footway is not permitted" (excerpt from council reply to my enquiries).
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
adrianN 7y ago

velox_io 7y ago

There's no mention of one of the worst culprits, buses with diesel engines. Plus, outside of rush-hour they're driving around virtually empty.

cowsandmilk 7y ago
> outside of rush-hour they're driving around virtually empty. Even during rush hour, most cars drive around virtually empty.
Steve44 7y ago
I know this is London only but they are changing over. I think generally the busses have a ten year life and more will be changing as time goes on. "London’s electric bus fleet becomes the largest in Europe" https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/september/london-s-electric-bus-fleet-becomes-the-largest-in-europe https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/septem...

VBprogrammer 7y ago

If I had just one wish about this legislation it would be that a standards body was created to limit the number of form factors that can be used for batteries. Being able to buy a car and know that you'll be able to change the battery in 10 years time with a compatible unit (possibly even with better capacity) would take much of the anxiety out of the electric car transition.